M14 Forum

Col. Colt

A Thompson's Terminal Effect is much greater than an MP5 - it is a .45, after all.

And reliability has never been much of a problem for original, military spec Thompsons - the ones made after WWII for the civilian market were not up to the GI spec, and did not due justice to the design. "Real" Thompsons are just fine, thanks.

You are correct, though in that the original, WWI "Trenchbroom" models were better fighting tools than the latter models - for a very good, simple reason. The original guns ran around 1000 rounds per minute. Unfortunately, the US Military had them all cranked down to 650 or so to save ammo in the 1920s!

Years back, when subgun matches were in vogue, the MP5 was indeed the gun to beat - initally - until someone at the custom Thompson Shop, GunMachines, rediscovered the original Thompson drawings and the original Thompson'srate of fire as actually designed by Col. Thompson. At 1000 rounds per minute, the Thompson beats the socks off of the MP5 - with dual pistol grips and some heft, it was apparently pretty easy to drive, too. I've fired both, and I'll take a Thompson, thanks. The biggest problem with a Thompson is that they have become too valuable to play with!

As for pistols, the 1911 still has the best trigger, the slimest profile - and is more than adequate for the task. I wouldn't take anything HK has over a decent example of it. CC

hammer 1

Marine soc has been using the 1911 for a number of years. They were built in the Marksmanship unit, one at a time. Built on Korean war era frames that was said some had over 500000 rounds through them. I read that a pre deployment training regimen could put several thousand rounds through each sidearm. The new kimbers are suffering from QC, older models, the "pre II", ones were good solid handguns. I have a first generation model that has over 90 thousand rounds through it. I would definitely trust my life to the pistol. The MP5 is 9mm, yes, but the shock to the body from several 9mm rounds striking, is totally different than one 9mm ball round hit. There is also a big difference between a MP5 and a thompson. Caliber is one , but the thompson is also machine intensive to make, its one big piece of forged steel. The HK is a stamping, its also used all over the world. And these guys , MEUSOC, know how to shoot, only hits count

TimmyK2112

We are going to a COTS pistol because of the aforemention Korean-era frames are almost gone. I personally went to Albany and gaged over 1100 1911s the Marine Corps "bought" from the Army. Out of all those we found ~300 that passed. The justification for going to a COTS pistol is that with all the 1911 frames we had in the inventory, it was a cost saving because they didn't have to be bought. Now the cost will go up if we buy frames vice buying a full gun.

bigblock

I hope not for SA Inc. Do they make any of there parts in this country? I know they get parts from all over the world to build there guns. They don't have what it takes for a big US contract with all the rules that go with it. Sure they could make small lots of good guns, but they don't have the manufacturing for made in the USA parts.

SA Inc. is like US car companies. They put them together here with out sourced parts. Said but true.

I hope they go with Colt or HK. HK would have to build a factory like Beretta did in the USA.

GeneCo

As shown on a vid, Colt still uses machines from the 30's and tout alot of hands on steps. A govt contract would need the full modern CNC operation, like Kimber or Ket-tec.

Btw, like any govt firearm contract, all parts would be forged and USGI.

Dredsen

I think a 1911 esque double stack pistol 14+1 and a UMP from hk would be perfect.

A friend on mine in the service informed me against the HK45, citing reliability issues. I have a para 14+1911 and i like it much better than a plastic gun.

i will use a plastic frame gun to go with my sig rifle.

BlackArrow

My money is on SAI

Philz M1A

my dad was a Marine in the 70's during 'nam. He always talks sh*t because he can shoot his 45 better than I can shoot my 40.

Must be old man strength.

or something like that...

When I bought my M1A I had to endure stories of Marine Corps Basic Training and shooting his M14 at 500 yards or something like that. Even the story where the DI took him around the side of the building and slapped the sh*t out of him. Good times dad, much respect.

TheTinMan

asa sarge:

The only gun I ever sold without a moment's regret was a Kimber CDP Pro II. It suffered at least one 3-point jam per magazine. Kimber's Customer Service told me to keep shooting it, especially since the problem was probably me limp-wristing the pistol. I figured out that the extractor shouldn't be able to clock 20+ degrees, put in and tuned a replacement that fixed the problem, replaced the plastic mainspring housing with a decent metal one, and got the gun running right. By then I hated it so much it was a relief to sell it - especially since the proceeds went into a Les Baer.

Now that's off my chest, I really like my H&K pistols. Utterly boringly reliable and they seem extremely well made. Accurate too. The triggers on the H&K 45s that I tried were not as nice (short, smooth & crisp) as my older USP Compact, let alone a really nice 1911 trigger. Not sure how critical that is to the mission here though.

DukeRustfield

I did a whole bunch of research on Thompsons for the heck of it some while ago. When the gun first came out it was described as sounding like fabric quickly tearing when it fired. They lowered the RoF not because they were concerned about brass, they were concerned about maintaining an accurate and effective weapon. Like always. We have 3 shot burst guns now not because we're saving on ammo, they found they were vastly more effective. Sure, we could make some 1500 RPM gun, but unless you're carrying around a backpack full of ammo and a chain feed, what's the point?

You can take an MP5 and dunk it in mud pull it out and bullseye 5 shots at 50 yards (well, I can't, but a smg marksman can). Thompsons, although unbelievable guns for their time, are about 100 years old now. They were never known for their accuracy. They were known for their ability to cut someone in half. They're bulky, heavy, and their mechanisms tended to jam in real world combat. This is not my assessment, it is the assessment of the US Army in WWII.

We put them through WWII and if they were so awesome Patton would have been singing its praises. Instead, he talked of the Garand, which led to the next generations of that gun and the mothballing of the Thompson and its quick replacement by the Grease Gun. Even during the war they made this transition--which means they were starting to do it near the beginning and it didn't take hold until the war was nearly over.

I heard the Grease Gun (updated) is still used in some transport divisions.

jbrooks

Yea, I vote H&K. Boring is correct. My USP has a 12+1 capability and can also fire 45 Super/460 Rowland, without modification.

(OK.. for the technical folks here, the 460 Rowland case is a tad longer than the 45 Super, but similar ballistics...)

Tough as a tank, boring as a rock. Never had a problem, period.

JWB

8654Maine

We jumped, swam, dove w/ MP5's (both -N & -SD models) along w/ our trusty MEUSOC .45 1911's and I can't think of one misfire for either.

The triggers on the MP5's were so smooth that triple tapping w/ 2 rounds per each tap was butter smooth.

The pre-deployment training was tremendous in terms of rounds expended thru both primary and seconday weapons.

I stopped counting after a while.

Those weapons took some abuse.

Dredsen

The USP has had a lot of problems in the desert. or so i have heard. glad yours runs great!

Col. Colt

The high rate of fire is not to see how many rounds you can dump at a time - it's to get three hits on the target instantly before the gun can even rise in recoil. Two and three round bursts is most always the proper way to use full auto - unless it is belt fed.

We have three shot burst weapons because the average grunt can't seem to learn not to just dump the magazine under stress.......

No subgun can win battles - it's an auxilary weapon for specialized use. Good for room clearing, but not beyond 150-200 yards. Thus Patton is not going to be impressed. The Greasegun replaced the Thompson because of the huge price difference - a Twenty dollar stamped gun vs. a fully machined, expensive gun - not because the Thompson was a jamamatic. If you have Official, US Army documentation on the GI spec Thompson being unreliable overall or inaccurate I'd love to read it. I have a Thompson Manual that seemed to indicate that sighted fire was quite possible and effective out to about 200 yards. If the gun was unreliable, that would seem to make those 30 round sticks, 50-100 round drums a waste of time, wouldn't it? Never heard that complaint before.

The Thompson went away because it was, in the final analysis, just too expensive, and a bit heavy. That doesn't mean it was not effective, reliable or accurate. Given the high standards in place at the time of it's adoption (1920's), such a weapon would not have been accepted. CC

rscalzo

The only 1911 I ever had issues with has been my SA loaded. Constant jams to the point I gave up on it. While I still have it, my SIG's have been flawless right out of the box.

Odd that some push the SA when the comments on their M1A's have often been less than glowing. The switch to the Maine facility has brought up issues with the S&W 1911's recently. Just shot a event with a friend who recently went to their M&P and her reviews have been less than glowing. So I guess anyone can have a dud every now and then.

As far as the issue in NC, it sounds like some dealer made a tidy profit on it. Buying that many units of a specific handgun gets a nice discount. As they paid almost $1100 per unit, what kind of a deal did they actually get?

What is even more puzzling is that a order that large and no one tested the potential winner of the bid? Whoever was in charge of that detail should have done more to insure the beast was being purchased in the first place.

Those "trade-in" are probably being sold for $800 to 900 each right now by the dealer.