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M1 Garand stock sets, Boyd's, Dupage, CMP

This is a discussion on M1 Garand stock sets, Boyd's, Dupage, CMP within the Gus Fisher forums, part of the Gun Professionals category; Folks, we have been getting a lot of questions on commercial stock sets for the M1 Garand, so I believe it is time to begin ...


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Old March 26th, 2013, 08:32 PM   #1
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M1 Garand stock sets, Boyd's, Dupage, CMP

Folks, we have been getting a lot of questions on commercial stock sets for the M1 Garand, so I believe it is time to begin a thread on them.

So we can stop some confusion right off the bat, Boyd's makes the basic blank sets for their own sets and for Dupage who makes the CMP stock sets and sells their own stock sets as well. HOWEVER, there are some HUGE differences in the finished product between Boyds sets and Dupage's sets, BECAUSE Dupage has gotten Boyds to CHANGE the way certain things were done to get better fitting stocks.

Before I go further, I am not connected in any way with Dupage Trading Inc. Until just two weeks ago, I never even spoke personally with Art. He just happened to take my telephone order for two stock sets and we had a very nice connversation. However, PLEASE understand I am not in any way, shape or form "talking for" or trying to represent Dupage. HOWEVER, I personally decided a few years ago to ONLY buy new stock sets from Dupage for a number of reasons I will go over in this thread. Here is the Dupage web page for their stock sets.

https://www.dupagetrading.com/dupage....php/m1-stocks

OK, first some background history. I don't remember exactly when Boyd's first started making Garand and other stock sets, but it was somewhere close to the year 2,000. What happened was the two old stock making firms of Bishops and Rheinhardt Fajen went out of business and Boyd's bought some of their stock duplicating machines. Boyd's REALLY did not understand how a stock set was supposed to be made for the Garand and their first stock sets required A LOT of work and glass bedding to get them to fit and work correctly. I'll go over more on that later.

A couple/few years later, some of the people who used to work for Rheinhardt Fajen began a new stock company called Wenig's. Their Garand stock sets were a little better than the Boyd's sets of those days, but STILL had some serious issues and usually required the stocks to be glass bedded.

In those days, there was such a high demand for replacement Garand stock sets that I was buying about 6 sets from Boyd's at a time. I would lay out all the wood and swap handguards around to get the best color and grain match, though I USUALLY had to stain at least one if not two sets to get the wood "to match." Boyd's made the sets "chunky" or oversized to the size at least as big as the Post WWII Birch Sets, if not a little "chunkier" or "fatter" than that. Of course, that was a lot "fatter" or "chunkier" than the WWII stocks had been made. THEN I began the fitting and glass bedding on the stocks JUST to make them "serviceable" for use.

Here is a list of common things I had to do to Boyd's stock sets in those years JUST to make them serviceable. PLEASE NOTE: When you see "DQ's" at the end of a line, that means it Disqualifies the stock or handguard for John Garand or "As Issue" rifle matches.

Stock
1. Too loose front to back for receiver legs and that will cause the rifle to shoot all over the place and never group well. At first only some were too loose and had to be glass bedded, but as the years went by, they almost all were too loose and had to be bedded. Glass bedding will cause DQ's
2. A LOT of adjustments had to be made so operating parts would not rub and cause flyers or poor groups.
3. Some times you had to move the stock ferrule much lower and that also means DQ's, because you then had to use bedding compound to get it to stay in the correct position.

Rear Handguard
1. Too long front to back. When too long, you have to file wood off the REAR of the HG.
2. Not cleared correctly on the bottom of the HG to fit on top the barrel. This used to be a MAJOR PITA on almost every one of them and you had to file/grind/sand a lot of wood off from the underside of the HG.
3. The channel cut for the HG clip was too long and if you tried to snap a HG band on it, you could easily CRACK the rear HG even when using HG pliers. The length of the channel cut had to be CAREFULLY shortened to get the clip on but also not too much so it would be loose.

Front Handguard
1. TOO long front to back. You have to file the REAR end of the HG when this happens.
2. The channel for the handguard liner was TOO LOW. That caused the op rod to seriously rub on the liner and would cause BOTH function and accuracy issues. The fix was to cut the channel higher (in the correct position) and then glass bed it and that means DQ's.
3. The channel for the liner was TOO SHORT and we had to cut it shorter from the rear.

Now, there were a LOT of smaller things wrong with the Boyd's stocks in those days as well. I USUALLY spent 2-3 hours to FIX a Boyd's set IF it did not require bedding.

The Wenig's sets were not quite as bad in those days, but some still had to be bedded and required some major work.

Both the Boyd's and Wenig's stock sets in those days were way too chunky or fat to be correct looking for WWII stock sets and for many people's tastes.

OK, will end this post here and go on for more in the upcoming posts.

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Old March 27th, 2013, 08:25 PM   #2
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The first reason I wanted to spell out the problems we found with the commercial stocks from the mid to late 90's through the early to mid 2,000's is the fact a whole lot of stock sets out there that were put on Garands DON'T fit the receivers and other parts well. Folks who are new to the M1 or even folks who always used GI stocks and handguards may not or probably won't realize this. So IF you are considering buying a rifle with a commercial stock, the stock and handguards should be inspected for the problems outlined in the post above. IOW, JUST because it has a stock set that LOOKS good, it may or may not fit well and may cause functioning or accuracy problems.

The second reason I wanted to point out the problems will ill fitting stocks and handguards is they won't allow you to have a good rifle for John Garand, CMP games matches or other "As Issue" rifle matches. Now even if you never intend to shoot in these kinds of matches, it still means that ill fitting stocks and handguards will not give you the accuracy and function that the standard M1 Garand is capable of.

In more recent years, I have not purchased or used a standard Boyd's stock set for years, but I have seen them on some rifles I have inspected. They seem to have improved a little, but not nearly enough for me to recommend them.

Bamban got the stock set mentioned in this thread from Wenig's not long ago. It was a HUGE improvement over their earlier offerings and wound up giving really good accuracy ONCE a bunch of rubs were cleared from the stock and the front handguard was shortened. That is good information to be able to report to you all.
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Now, even the stock sets I get directly from Dupage need SOME fitting and adjustments. I actually PREFER the stocks to be taller from the top of the stock to the bedding surface for the trigger housings than standard GI stocks were made. What that does is ALLOW us to use so many of the trigger guards that have worn locking lugs and they can be fitted very tightly. Then as the wood naturally compresses from enough rounds fired, you can substitute a less worn trigger guard and the stock will tighten right back up. This is ESPECIALLY important for John Garand and other As Issue matches that don't allow shimming or glass bedding. This means the stock can be used a lot longer for these competitions before the stock is too loose. Of course, when the stock eventually loosens up too much, glass bedding will bring it right back to as tight or tighter than new - BUT you won't be able to use that stock for these competitions.

In my conversation with Art at Dupage a couple weeks ago, I was able to confirm some things I had always strongly suspected and they all revolved around what Art has been able to get Boyd's to change and the fact he has not succeeded in getting Boyd's to make all the changes he recommended. That is why there are still some things that have to be worked or adjusted even with Dupage stocks because the problems come directly from Boyd's. IOW, we can't blame Dupage if Boyd's won't make the changes.

In follow on posts, I will be posting things I find in the two brand new stock sets I got from Dupage and what I have to do to fit them to two Issue Garand Rifles.

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Old March 28th, 2013, 08:01 AM   #3
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This post is going to be shorter than usual, I think, but I remembered a couple things I should have added in earlier posts.

At least up to a few years ago, Boyd's stocks were VERY thick, chunky, fat, or however one wishtes to describe them. They seem to have used the thickest Post WWII birch stocks as the pattern and even gone even a little beyond that thickness at times.

With my background in NM shooting, our shooters generally preferred a REALLY thick stock unless they had REALLY small hands and not many of our shooters had small hands. They said the thicker stocks forced them to "spread out" their grip and it actually aided a more uniform grip so they didn't "over grip" the stock and wind up squeezing their thumb into their fingers or even squeezing finger to finger. We only had one shooter with small hands and he wasn't that tall, so for him we filed and sanded down his FAT Bishop walnut stock to just a little over a standard M14 walnut grip profile.

Now of course these Boyd's stocks have wood protruding A LOT away from the buttplate, stock ferrule, lower band and front handguard ferrule and some folks don't like the look of that because WWII and most GI stocks were not that thick. Before Dupage started making the outside dimensions closer to WWII spec, or maybe at about the same time, Boyd's did one or two "runs" of wood that were close to WWII spec and they were more popular. Not sure why Boyd's dropped the WWII profiles.

If you have at least medium to big hands, you may actually like the thicker Boyd's stocks better. HOWEVER, please be advised that as far as I know, the current Boyd's are still TOO LOOSE in too many areas to make a really good and tight fitting stock for even "G.I. type accuracy." Of course, if you don't complete in John Garand or "As Issue" matches, then you can glass bed those stocks to get good accuracy out of them.

For what it's worth, I have good sized or large hands, and I prefer the thickness of the stock to be close to the somewhat slimmer WWII profile. However, that is personal preference and there is nothing wrong if you like fat stocks, medium stocks or even if you like to thin the stocks down more in certain areas than the WWII profile.

Something that I have noticed some Garand Collectors complain about is if the wood is not RIGHT at the edge of the metal or just a tiny bit above it. They often point to how much the wood is exposed beyond the edge of the buttplate and if it is more than say 1/32", they start complaining. Well, how close the wood was to the metal on original stocks VARIED a lot by:

1. Experience of the person who did the final sanding at the Arsenal. The final shape sanding of rifle stocks was done "by eyeball" of the workers who worked in the wood shop at Springfield Arsenal and I suppose at Winchester. More experienced stock sanders got the wood closer to metal parts than others and the "flow" of the shape of the stock was better. Less experienced personal left "humped areas" and often did not sand as close to the metal.

2. The time period the stock was made. About 20 years ago, I had an original Nov 1941 Springfield Rifle. The stock was WELL shaped/profiled/sanded and fairly close to the buttplate and that rifle looked like it had never been sanded down since. I have seen quite a few stocks from the actual WWII years where the wood protruded more than that. I ASSUME they did not have time to take the extra effort required to so finely finish sand the stocks, especially when they were building THREE THOUSAND rifles every 24 hours.

3. How many times the troops or Arsenal rebuilds sanded down the stocks. In the Post WWII era, troops OFTEN scraped or sanded down their stocks and added extra coats of BLO or other oils to make they "look pretty" to stand inspection with or special guard or drill units. Stocks that had wood protruding more from the metal would then have had the wood protrusion reduced a little or a lot, depending on how much they scraped or sanded. In the very late rebuild years, I swear SOME Arsenals used the coarsest HORSE RASPS they could find to get rid of really bad dings in stocks and you can STILL see the gouges in the stocks from the rasps. It doesn't even look like they TRIED to sand some stocks before they slapped on the dark reddish brown, paint pignment stain they used in the late 50's and 60's.

4. What buttplate is on the stock. WRA buttplates were not as WIDE or quite as TALL as the outside dimension of WWII Springfield buttplates. In the 50's, Springfield and IHC and HRA used the widest and tallest buttplates of the Garand Era. SO...... if you had a stock that was shaped for the wider Post WWII buttplates and the buttplate that got put on the stock was a refinished WRA buttplate during an Arsenal rebuild, the wood would have protruded NOTICEABLY with the smaller WRA buttplate. I was VERY used to seeing Garands that had the wider and thicker Post WWII replacement Garand stocks and we just sort of chose the buttplate that seemed to fit the best. Even so, the wood often protruded quite a bit from the buttplate.

I wanted to mention these things about how much the wood did or did not protrude from the metal parts depending on the above reasons. Even people who make a PERFECT commercial stock to G.I. outside specs. get complaints about how much the wood MAY protrude and I think it would cause them to pull their hair out, because most people don't understand these things. Bottom line, IF you like a REALLY close wood to metal fit, then get the Dupage or CMP stock set and YOU STILL MAY HAVE to sand down the stock a little more to get it exactly how you like it. The manufacturers and Arsenals were not NEARLY so concerned about how much the wood protruded from the metal on the stocks and handguards as we in the civilian world seem to be.

Oh, one last thing. On some commercial stock sets AND even G.I. replacement stocks when they were new, had sharp edges left after the wood was sanded down. When this happens, get out a piece of 180 grit or better still 220 grit and slightly sand/round the sharp edges. You can even do it in some places with a fine file.

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Old May 3rd, 2013, 09:06 PM   #4
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Folks, I'm helping move my Father out of his house this week and also fighting our Virginia Spring time allergies as well as trying to get some work out. The allergies are bothering me much more than it used to. So I have not been posting as much.

OK, got this as a PM and decided I would try to add at least one more post to this thread:

Gus,
I have a new unmolested Boyd's stock.
I fully understand how to fit the receiver and trigger group.
I am wondering what should be done, if anything, to the rear hand guard? It is making pretty firm contact with the stock and it seems that this may not be the best for accuracy.
The rifle is an H&R service grade special that I just received from the CMP. One of their armorers had done a complete butcher job on the stock trying to fit it. Things were wompy jawed and the lock up was loose.
I exchanged that stock for one that no one had dinked with.
It will be my JCG match gun and I need it to shoot as well as I can and I am a solid 94-95% shooter with my other M1.
Thanks


I will get to answering this question, but there are a bunch of important things to check/consider first.

Not sure if you have the Boyd's wood set from Boyds OR the Boyd's wood set from Dupage or CMP. I'm going to ASSUME it was straight from Boyd's in the following text. Dupage does a much, MUCH better job of pre-fitting the hand guards on the wood sets they sell and/or work for CMP. So if you have a set from Dupage or CMP, not everything is going to apply, but it is good to check for these things even with a set Dupage worked over.

1. FIRST, to do any work on a rear hand guard, you REALLY need a good set of STEEL hand guard pliers. The Aluminum ones wear out so quickly they are not worth buying. Out of the commonly available pliers out there, the ones I linked below are the ones I use and have had very good success with. You just have to remember to tighten the screw in the center between the two halves occasionally as you can not tighten them down hard or the two halves won't move. (The original GI blueprints for these used a rivet there.)

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod17203.aspx

2. SECOND, there most definitely is a RIGHT way and a wrong way to mount the hand guard clip. ONE foot is turned upwards more than the other and THAT has to be put on the RIGHT side of the hand guard so it won't rub on the operating rod. (This is also true for fiberglass or wood M14 hand guards, BTW.) Don't know how many times I have seen people mount the clip on the WRONG side and they wonder why it keeps popping loose. The op rod rubbing on it pops it loose when mounted on the wrong side. EVERY time you look at a rear hand guard you should check for this.

The next thing I want to mention is about Hand guard Clips, themselves. Bill Ricca and other knowledgeable/advanced collectors have assured me the clip was the same for the Garand and the M14 hand guards. However, it SEEMS like a good number of Garand hand guard clips were slightly longer around the hand guard or they were not made of quite as strong spring steel. MAYBE it is just that since they have been on a Garand for decades, the spring steel has "sprung" just a bit. I don't know for sure, but it SEEMS like original Garand Hand guard clips go on the hand guards easier than M14 clips. Maybe the M14 clips were made to a tighter radius? Whatever is the case, you NEED to know that. I use a LOT of clips that came off unserviceable M14 hand guards on Garand Hand guards, BUT you REALLY have to be careful when you use them because they don't go on the wood as easily as Garand clips. .

I guess the next things to mention is how to take the clip off and put it on a hand guard.

The correct technique to get the hand guard off is to get the hook on one side of the pliers engaged with the clip foot that is turned upward. Then get the other hook of the pliers on the other clip foot and make sure both pliers’ hooks engage both clip feet. Press the pliers together to open up clip so you can just slip the hand guard down FROM THE LEFT SIDE or the side of the clip that has the foot that is NOT turned up. You have to do this CAREFULLY and not let the pliers slip while you are trying to move the hand guard down past the left clip foot. You also want to keep a little pressure with your other hand sort of holding the wood against the side of the clip with the upturned foot while you turn the wood down past the other foot. On some original and some repro rear hand guards, the clip seems almost glued in place by layers of finish on it OR the wood has swelled. In those cases, I press the clip open and closed a few times without trying to take it off. That breaks free the surface finish and/or wears down the swelled wood a bit and then you can carefully take it off.

3. IF the hand guard clip is NOT mounted when you get the hand guard, then you can check some things while it is off.

A. Check how the length of the curved surface of wood on the hand guard that the clip slips over. If you took the clip off an original Garand hand guard, then you can measure that with a thin measuring tape or even a piece of string you mark at both ends. If your repro hand guard woos is that same length, then you are good to go. If it is LONGER than the original hand guard, then you have some work to do.

There are two ways to shorten the length of the curved wood that the clip fits over. One way is to file the top of the curved wood, but I DON’T recommend that normally because you are thinning the wood underneath it. Now, if there is a noticeable hump in the wood, then, yes, it is a good idea to smoothen out the top of the curved wood surface so the clip will press against it as equally as possible. If that is the case, file it just smooth without taking a lot of wood off and recheck the length. If it is STILL too long, then you have to look at both sides of the curved surface and take a little wood off while maintaining the curved surface as much in the center as possible.

One more thing before you try to put the clip in place. I think it is a good idea to SLIGHTLY and GENTLY round the square corners of the curved surface of the wood on the top and ESPECIALLY on the inside bottom of each side of the curve. What that does is help sort of ease the clip in place.

NOW, try to open the clip and mount the clip on the hand guard. You place the right side of the hand guard with some pressure against the upturned foot on the right side of the clip. Then push the hand guard around to see if the clip will go over the left side of the curved surface. CAUTION, if it does not look or “feel” like the clip will go over the end of the curved surface, take the wood off and shorten the curved wood surface until you are confident it will slip over the end. Better to have the curved surface a bit too short rather than too long as too long will bust or crack the hand guard in some spot. Once you have it so the clip will go over the hand guard nicely, then take the clip off for now. Take the parts off the barrel so there is just the barrel sticking out from the receiver

B. The next thing you must do is check to see if the front of the hand guard will go into the rear of the lower band. You may have to file it a little to get it to go in. One thing you MUST make sure of is when the tenon is inside the lower band all the way forward, the tenon does NOT go further than the front of the plate inside the lower band. If it does, you must file it back to it is just below that forward surface of the plate in the lower band.

C. Now that the hand guard properly fits in the lower band (LB), put the hand guard and LB on the barrel all the way back in place. Ensure the hand guard is all the way forward in the LB. Look between the front of the receiver and the rear of the hand guard. You MUST see at least a tiny/thin line of light between these surfaces OR the hand guard will be fit too tightly and CRACK when you fire the rifle and the barrel whips around. If you don’t see a thin line of light all the way around the hand guard, then you must file a little off the rear of the hand guard until you do.

Now you put the clip back on the hand guard.

4. The FIRST time you try to put especially a hand guard from Boyds on the barrel, you have to be CAREFUL to not just snap it on as you could crack it. You place the hand guard (HG from now on) on the RIGHT side of the barrel and get the upturned foot in the barrel channel notch. Then GENTLY push the HG around to see if the left clip will snap into the channel on the left side. TOO OFTEN with Boyd’s rear HG’s, it won’t go around the barrel and allow the clip to snap in place. The problem is the underside of many of their HG’s was not shaped correctly to allow clearance for the barrel.

To fix that, I put a layer of grease on the barrel all over the top from in front of the receiver to the LB. Then try to once more push the HG around the barrel and take it off. The grease rub marks show you where you have to file/sand the wood so the HG will fit over the barrel. Most of the time it hits in the last 1/3 of the HG, but SOMETIMES It also hits forward of that. You MAY have to put the HG on and take it off many times until you get the clearance needed, but go slow and only take a little wood off at a time.

5. Once the HG snaps over and fits over the barrel, then slide the LB on and see if the HG fits into it on the barrel. SOME TIMES you have to take more wood off the underside of the barrel when the HG won’t go down low enough for the tenon to freely enter the LB. Once it does, then with the HG and LB on the barrel, put the roll pin in place.

6. Now you want to assemble the receiver with just the HG and LB on it into the stock and lock it down with the trigger guard. You want to check to ensure that each side of the HG does not bear against the top of the stock on either side. If it does, then you need to file/sand the bottom edge of either side of the HG so there is 1/32” to 1/16” clearance between the bottom of each edge and the top of the stock on both sides. The way I mark it before filing/sanding is to run a pencil mark along the whole side of the top off the stock against the side of the HG that needs a little taken off the bottom of the HG. I suggest you take the clip off the HG when doing that as it makes it easier to do and you won’t file/sand/ding up the clip that way. Once you have at least 1/32” clearance on both sides, you are done fitting the rear HG.

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Old May 7th, 2013, 12:04 PM   #5
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The Front hand guard or FHG from now on.

WOW have I seen some really messed up FHG’s from Boyds over the years and from some other places. Fortunately Dupage does a nice job on theirs and the ones they do for CMP.

When I take the ferrule and liner off a FHG, I do it by bending the REAR tabs of the liner inward and driving the ferrule and liner off the front of the FHG. I jam a narrow screwdriver between the wood and rear tabs to bend them inward enough so they won’t catch on the channel for the ferrule. BEND them GENTLY inward or they will crack or break. Tap on the rear of the liner with a piece of scrap wood that fits between the tabs to drive the ferrule forward and off. You sometimes also have to pry forward on the rear inside of the ferrule, itself. Now, the REASON I do it this way is because I am not messing up the way the front tabs are bent around the ferrule. So, when you remount the liner and ferrule, it will look good. I do it carefully so it is VERY rare I crack the rear tabs on bending them in and back in place on a new FHG. HOWEVER, it would be a good idea to anneal just the rear tabs with a propane torch after you take it off the old FHG and before you try to bend them back on the new FHG. The discoloration of the rear tabs won’t be noticeable once the FHG is installed because you can’t see them inside the Lower Band.

There are FIVE big things about fitting the FHG and they are:

1. The ferrule has to be fitted so it sits ALL the way back against the shoulder. Some times you have to shorten the tenon for it and sometimes you have to file a little around it to get the ferrule to go all the way on. You fit the ferrule first and if the liner is still attached to the ferrule, that’s all well and good.

2. The length of channels for the sides of the liner is important. Many times as you receive a new FHG, you have to cut the bedding surface a little further forward so the rear tabs can be bent over them. Push the ferrule and liner all the way to the rear and use the wide end of the liner as a sort of length guide. The bedding surfaces should be about 1/16” to 3/32” further to the rear so the tabs can bend around them and tighten the liner and ferrule on the FHG. I cut them with a ¼ “ diameter carbide cutter with a SMOOTH end in a dremel type tool.

3. BEFORE you tighten the rear tabs on the new FHG, you MUST ensure the liner is not down too far. Measure from the top of the rear hole in the FHG down to the liner. The measurement should be right at ¾”. If it is more than that, the op rod is going to drag/rub on the liner. I’ve had to cut the channels for the sides of the liner on many FHG’s from Boyds or some other makers to get the liner up where it should be. That required filling in the liner channels with bedding material and to give some support above the liner. GOOD thing this is NOT hardly ever a problem with Dupage or CMP FHG’s.

To tighten the tabs, I made a pair of tools out of ¼” thick plywood like the top tool shown in the link below. These tools made from plywood last a pretty long time. I don’t like using iron tools for this as it mars/marks the tabs. Some day I hope to run across some strong plastic stock to make them from. I put one in my shop vice with the ferrule down over it and use the other to tighten the rear tabs OR use a punch to tighten down the tabs. After the tabs/liner are tight front to rear, I place the FHG down on each side to bend the tabs out of the way of the channel in the liner. Usually use the square end of a punch to do that.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/M1-Garand-TO...8#ht_243wt_726

4. Now you have to check the FHG for length so mount it inside the LB on the barrel and slide the GC on. IF the FHG is too long, it will crack from the barrel whipping around in recoil. Screw the GCL ALL the way back tight and ensure you have at least a TINY bit of movement between the FHG ferrule and the rear of the GC. IF the FHG is tight or there is no movement, then you have to cut the REAR of the FHG to get the movement. Basically you cut/inlet the rear tenon of the FHG so it fits further back into the Lower Band.

5. With the FHG, GC, GC Lock and GCL screw installed on the barrel, mount just the Op Rod and bolt and do the “Tilt Test.” Some times the op rod will now drag on the front portion of the liner. If so, you need to take a brass, wood or plastic punch and tap the liner a little higher until the Op Rod slides freely.

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Old June 1st, 2013, 02:13 PM   #6
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Just got done working on a FHG that is an example of what happens when it is not made quite right.

1. The front "tenon" or wood extension that the ferrule fits over was a bit too long. That meant the ferrule would not snug up against the shoulder and though while it would still work, it would look bad. (This can also mean the overall length of the FHG would be too long if left alone.) OK, so I shortened the tenon so the ferrule would go on fully back. I do this by greasing the inside of the ferrule and tapping it on to show where the excess wood has to be cut away. Now, there is a "Gotcha" you can run into on doing this. You HAVE to radius/angle the front enges of the outside and inside of the tenon or the ferrule will hang up just on the corners.

2. The half moon shoulders for the rear tabs of the liner were too far to the rear. Fixed that by cutting them with the 1/4" carbide cutter mentioned above.

3. The liner is a little too far down from the top of the FHG. I think I will bend the liner in a half moon shape, but I may have to raise the long channels for the liner body and glass the liner into the correct position. There is no problem with re-cutting and glassing it higher on this FHG as it won't be used for "As Issue" or JC Garand Match competition, but it would have had to be replaced if the stock set was going to be used for those kinds of competition. You CAN bend the liner for these competitions, though.

4. Had to do just a bit of filing to get the FHG to go into the lower band. This is not uncommon at all and was often needed with GI replacement FHG's.

5. This proved to be really unusual and something I haven't seen for some time. When I put the FHG on a GI barrel, it STUCK hard against the barrel. Looked into the top long hole of the FHG and it was not drilled accurately. So I greased the barrel to show where the rubs were and got out a round rasp to clear the wood where it was rubbing. Had to file and fit it about 6 times as this is something you want to do A LITTLE AT A TIME so you don't cut too much wood out and ruin the FHG.

================================================== =======

Something I did not mention above is the rear tabs on the stock liner CAN sometimes crack when you bend them open or when you bend them back down on a new FHG. This sometime happened with brand new liners when they were first bent down in a FHG originally. The odds of it happening are something like 1 in 25 to 30.

Something you can do IF you take the liner out the way I do it by prying out the REAR tabs and pushing the liner and ferrule off towards the front. (I do it this way as the "factory bend" of the front tabs is not disturbed and looks good when you reinstall the liner.) You can grab a propane torch and heat the two rear tabs to red and then lay the liner on something like a brick or concrete floor so it won't burn anything and WAIT for it to cool naturally. (DON'T dunk it in water to cool it or anything else as you can make the liner more brittle and it would then crack easier when the tabls are bent.) After the tabs cool naturally, they will bend without cracking and the discoloration of the heating really can't be noticed because most of it is inside the FHG where it can't be seen.

Thanks from honer, LoB and budster
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Old June 1st, 2013, 06:45 PM   #7
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Thanks Gus for the effort you put into this!! Answered alot of questions for me . . even some questions I didn't know I had!!

Thanks!!

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Old June 1st, 2013, 08:41 PM   #8
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Thanks Gus for the effort you put into this!! Answered alot of questions for me . . even some questions I didn't know I had!!

Thanks!!
You are most welcome.

Still have to write one or more posts on the stocks.

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Old June 1st, 2013, 11:14 PM   #9
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Well, can't sleep tonight because of the torn cartillage in my rib cage, so I guess I can bang out another post. (I know it sounds funny, but I can still type by being careful how I hold my arms and I have to sit upwards for a while anyway. Grin.)

OK, the FIRST thing I most strongly suggest you fit to a new stock is the Butt Plate or "BP" from now on. Yeah, I know that sounds funny but I can ASSURE you that you don't want to drop a stock with no buttplate on it as it will EASILY chip or crack the wood on the toe especially. Yep, it has happened to me even with being as careful as possible on the many dozens of stock sets I've fitted over the years. So let's do that first.

First I put the BP in place and try to tap it on with a rubber/rawhide or other SOFT mallet. One of the plastic dead blow mallets work well, too. if it doesn't go on, then you have to look to see where the wood is rubbed and file a little wood off there. Once it goes on, you need to ensure it goes forward all the way to shoulder all the way around. If it does not, then a number of things could be going on. When this happens, I put a light coat of grease on the entire inside of the buttplate. Here are things I've found that keep the buttplate from going all the way forward:

1. The sharp corners of the outside edges of the tenon just need to be radiused or angled a bit with a file. I always do that before I put the BP on the first time if the corners are sharp.

2. The BP is hanging up on the oval lip for the BP trap door. I normally clear this with a chisel.

3. The BP is hanging up on too much wood protruding rearward and often this is towards the bottom of the BP bedding area. This takes filing down the tenon as needed.

4.. Believe it or not, the BP can hang up because of the bosses for the screw heads hit wood and don't clear. Chamfering the holes with a larger drill bit or even a knife will take care of that.

5. The BP trap door is hitting somewhere.

6. The bosses that hold the BP Trap Door Pin are hitting.

You sometimes REALLY have to look to see where a tiny grease spot is that shows where the wood is keeping the BP from seating correctly.

The next problems can come from where the screw holes are drilled in the stock.

On the top BP screw, here are the things I've found over the years:

1. The hole is not drilled in the right spot, or not large enough, or not deep enough or at an angle so the screw head won't sit nice and flush in the BP when you tighen it down.

A. If the hole is not in the right spot, then you have to make a wood plug and glue it in the hole. Many years ago I think it was my Grandfather who taught me you DO NOT want to drill a round hole and glue in a round piece of wood to do this. It is actually better to sort of whittle a plug that is a bit oversize, coat it with glue and hammer it into the hole. Then the plug won't rotate if the glue doesn't hold just right. Not sure if that holds true with modern epoxy glue, but I STILL do it that way. Just don't make the plug TOO bit or it may crack the stock as you hammer it in.

The next step is to drill a new hole. I usually put the BP on and use a drill bit that JUST clears through the hole and tap it to leave a mark for the center of the hole. The hole size must just clear the root diameter of the screw, so use a Number 18 drill bit or 11/64" fractional drill bit and wrap a piece of tape around it a little longer than the length of the screw. Make sure you drill it straight and perpendicular to the end of the stock. Sight both sideways and up and down when you drill it to make sure it goes in straight. To finish up you need to drill a SHORT chamfered hole so the BP hole boss will clear the wood.

B. If the hole is not large enough, you have to open it up for the root diameter of the screw body and NOT the thread diameter or the screw will just fall out. So get a Number 18 drill bit or 11/64" fractional drill bit and wrap a piece of tape around it a little longer than the length of the screw. Make sure you drill it straight and perpendicular to the end of the stock. Sight both sideways and up and down when you drill it to make sure it goes in straight.

On the Bottom BP screw, here are the things I've found over the years.

1. The hole was not chamfered to clear the BP boss.

2. The hole was not drilled correctly so it would not allow the screw to align with the threaded hole in the Rear Sling Swivel (RSS), MAN CAN THIS BE A PITA TO FIX!!!!

A. Some times the problem is the hole for the upper portion of the RSS is not large enough or high enough up in the stock. If not, then that is the first thing to fix by cutting it larger or higher as needed.

B. Some times, the front of the hole is drilled too high, too low or too far to the left or right even when the RSS hole is made correctly. The way to fix that is THIS time you want to use a drill bit that IS as large or a bit larger than the screw diameter because this screw is a machine screw and the threads don't screw into the wood. So use a 7/32" drill bit in an electric hand drill and while it is running, press the rear of the drill in the opposite direction you want the front of the hole moved. This will force the front in the direction you want it moved. The GOOD THING here is you don't want the wood contacting around the body of the screw anyway, so if you have to enlarge the hole, it won't matter. What matters is the screw threads enter the RSS without binding and all the strength to hold the bottom of the buttplate and the RSS is from the screw threads to the threads in the RSS.

C. Though it is not common, some times the hole is not deep enough going forward and the front of the screw hits wood before the head of the screw can tighten down flush with the BP. Just drill the hole deeper with the 7/32" drill bit when that happens.

The next post will be on fitting the stock ferrule.

Thanks from honer, LavaTech and budster
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Old June 2nd, 2013, 08:18 PM   #10
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OK, the next part/area we will address is the front of the stock and the stock ferrule or SF from now on.

The first thing to do is angle the top edges of the stock channel right behind the tenon for the SF. (This is far easier to do BEFORE you mount the SF.) You go back about 1 5/8" from the rear of the SF to where the channel opens up. This must be done so the barrel does not bounce off either top side of the barrel channel during recoil. Look at your GI stock to get an idea of how far down you have to go. I have removed wood there with both chisels and files. IF you use chisels, make SURE it/they are SHARP and only cut thin slices of wood each time while holding your chisel at an angle to the wood. This duplicates the cutting action of a hand "Skew Plane" our Grandfathers and Great Grandfathers used. BE CAREFUL not to split out too much wood and that's why you take rather thin slices. IF you are not good with chisels, then do it with a file as it is MUCH easier to do, though it takes longer, without risk of messing up the job.

OK, not many of us have seen REAL New Old Stock SF's. Bill Ricca showed me one at the Baltimore Gun show one time and the legs go out at a serious angle. I would really like to have seen the machine that bent the legs around the stock tenon. Most of us deal with SF's that have already been on stocks and the threaded part of the screw is peened so it wouldn't fall out. On only some GI ferrules, the screw was not peened or have had the screw replaced and they did not peen the end. Of course there are some brand new SF's and other parts that are made overseas that while the legs are bent down, at least the screw was not peened. OK, so why am I mentioning these things you ask? Well, it really is important to realize HOW the SF's fit on GI stocks, ESPECIALLY when you are trying to keep a rifle LEGAL for John Garand and other "Issue Rifle" matches.

At the REAL Springfield Arsenal and other factories, the stock duplicating machines made VERY precisely cut/shaped front stock tenons (as was everything else on the stock). If you look inside a SF, you will notice grooves all down the sides on the interior of the SF. Those grooves were meant to be pressed into the wood as they were bent around and with the screw in place, hold the SF from coming loose or off the rifle. They worked VERY WELL and for a long time in even rough combat environments. They finished it by peening the screw threads so the screw would not come loose. All this AND it left the front sling swivel loose enough it would move front to back as needed. That's a pretty impressive piece of engineering and technology.

NORMALLY when we take SF's off old stocks, they have the screws tightened down about as much as can be and then peened. If you cut the wood tenon on the stock so those SF's will go over the tenon, the grooves in the SF CAN NOT hold the SF on the tenon long at all before it loosens up, because the grooves are not tightened into the wood. Now, IF competition rules allow it, we can use epoxy to correct this and glue on the SF, BUT that is not legal for John Garand Match and other "As Issue" matches. So......... if we want a stock set that is legal for those types of competition, we have to mount the SF on the new stock tenon as close as possible to how they did it for GI use and that can get a little complicated.

Many if not most GI SF's have the threaded end of the screw peened over and we need to get that screw out without buggering up the threads in the SF too much so it can't be used. (Of course, the easy option is to get a new made SF because they don't have peened screw threads and you can just unscrew the screw.) I have lost track of how many peened over screws I have taken out with at least a 90 percent success rate. The way I do it is cut down into the CENTER of the screw with a 3/32" or 1/8" carbide ball "bur" or cutter made for Dremel tools. I cut out the center of the screw down below the surface of the outside of the SF around it. Then I carefully cut and sneak up to the edges of the peened over screw until there is very little or no metal sticking out beyond the threaded portion of the screw. Then I try to unscrew the screw and if it comes out easily, that's great. If it does not come out easily, then I cut some more of the screw until it does. Now, sometimes you can slip and the cutter skips over on the side of the SF. This can either be filed a bit or sanded and cold blued or reparkerized. However, if you take light cuts, it doesn't happen very often at all. OK, so what happens when the screw comes out and a new replacement screw doesn't have enough thread engagement, or IOW the threads are stripped a bit in the SF. The good news is a 10/32 tpi screw thread is a bit different/maybe a bit larger and will almost always save such a SF. You have to work it in to get it started and it reforms the threads as it goes in, but it works most of the time. If you can't find a fillister head 10/32 screw locally, I suggest you order a pack of twelve Fillister Head Screws, 080-050-032WB ,Size 10 - 32 x 1" $5.99 that can be found here: http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...t-prod394.aspx You can cut these down to length size and even modify the head a bit to make it more like GI, though most places accept the head "as is." You also need to lay the Front Sling Swivel aside for a while.

OK, so once you have the screw out, you need to bend open the legs of the SF a bit. I put a piece of thick rag or leather on each before I grip it with pliers to bend it, so as not to harm the suface finish. You only need to bend the legs a bit so the open space between them is at most twice as wide between the feet (where the screw goes through) than normal. Now it is time to see how it will fit over the wood tenon on the new stock and this can also get a bit tricky.

Ideally, both top edges of the U shaped SF should be slightly below the surface of the top of the stock behind it. As you start to put the SF in place, this is something to look for and if necessary, file down the top edges of the tenon so the tops of the SF are slightly below the top surface of the stock. This is the FIRST filing done before any other because how the size of the outer surface of the tenon is critical to being large enough for the SF grooves to dig into the wood tenon. ALSO and this is IMPORTANT, you can not forget the bottom of the U shape of the inside of the tenon may have to be lowered to allow the top edges of the SF to sit just below the surface of the top of the stock.

You MAY have to take a little wood off the sides of the tenon just to get the SF to go on over the tenon, even when the legs are bent out. Do this carefully and try to leave as much wood as possible so the SF just slips on the tenon and goes all the way to the shoulder surrounding the tenon. OK, so what happens if the SF does not go all the way to the shoulder of the stock all the way around. Some times you have to grease the inside plate of the tenon, tap it on and see where the grease marks are on the tenon. Then file down the areas a bit and try again until the SF does go all the way back on the shoulder.

Now that the SF is all the way back on the shoulder, it is time to check to see if it sits too far forward. You need to mount the barreled receiver in the stock without the op rod, op rod catch, op rod spring, follower rod,etc. IOW, field strip the barreled receiver. What you are looking for is if there is at least light between the front "plate"of the SF (not the lip that protrudes into the Lower Band) and the rear of the lower band. The distance between the front plate of the SF and the Lower Band (LB) should be at least enough to see light between them and is good if it is between 3/64" and 1/16" between them. IF the
front plate of the SF is rubbing on the LB and the LB legs are not bent backwards and are perpendicular to the barrel, then you need to inlet the whole SF back a bit to get clearance. If not, the rubbing of these two parts will cause all kinds of flyers in your group down range. Fortunately, this is pretty uncommon to have to do this on reproduction stocks, but you must check it NOW and correct it NOW (if necessary) before going further.

Then push hard on the legs of the SF towards the tenon on each side with something non marring like a piece of wood to work at bending them down and impressing the grooves of the SF on the wood tenon. Hopefully, you will be able to bend the legs enough this way for the screw to JUST start in the threads of the one foot after going through the other foot and then you can use the screw to pull the legs in a bit further. However, if the feet are too far apart, then you are going to have to CAREFULLY file the sides of the wood tenon a little bit at a time until you can do that. NOW you DO NOT WANT to tighten the screw too much and you need to test this by putting the Front Sling Swivel (FSS) back between the legs of the SF. You want to STOP tightening the screw before the feet jam tight against the top of the FSS. You do this by stop tightening the screw while there is still distance or at least light between the feet of the SF and both sides of the top of the FSS.

Finally, you have to decide whether or not you want to peen over the threads of screw that protrude from the outside of the SF as they did with GI stocks. I don't do it if the SF really tightened down before the feet caused the top of the FSS to be tight. If you do want to do it, then you need something like a lead/babbit bar to set the head of the screw on while you peen down the threaded side with a punch.

OK, that's long enough for now. We will get into fitting the receiver into the stock in the next posts.

Thanks from budster
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Old June 6th, 2013, 06:49 PM   #11
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I think you should be in your workshop rather than on the computer.

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Old June 6th, 2013, 07:15 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by 2ballcane View Post
I think you should be in your workshop rather than on the computer.
Grin. Yes, I know who wrote this and it is with mostly tongue in cheek.

However, the worst fitting FHG mentioned above was on the upgraded stock set you got. This was not the end of the problems with it.

It ALSO had the channel cut for the FHG liner WAY too low (as in almost .070" too low) and the liner can not be bowed/bent to make up for it being off that much. GOOD thing it is NOT going on a certain person's John C Garand Match rifle. (Tongue in cheek back at you my very good friend.)

To get the liner high enough that it would not rub the op rod so hard during operation, I had to cut the stock liner channels that much higher. Actually figured out a way to do it using a special ferrule I have and a very special wood chisel followed by files. Now it will go high enough and I will have to epoxy bed it in place using a 3/4" dowel to set the distance correctly. Since the rifle will not be fired in John C. Garand or other CMP Games matches, this makes it good as new for other than "As Issue" rifle matches.

Thanks from honer and budster
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Old June 9th, 2013, 06:07 PM   #13
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You will receive master's wages.

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Old June 9th, 2013, 07:53 PM   #14
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Gus... Go to your local Health and vitamin store and pick up some Grape seed extract for those allergies.My Daughter tried everything ;Benedryl ect and didnt work .Did the Grape seed pills and cleared it right up .Semper Fi

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Old June 20th, 2013, 07:30 PM   #15
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Getting the Trigger Guard (TG) to close. Part I

ESPECIALLY with a Boyd's stock, though these things should be checked on any stock, you MUST make sure of a bunch of things are free/clear BEFORE you go taking wood off the two long bedding areas for the front of the trigger housing to allow the trigger guard to close. The reason for that is there are other areas that will cause tension/drag/rubbing and not allow the trigger guard to close nicely until/unless they are cleared. BELIEVE me that a whole lot of us ran into this when Boyd's first started making stocks and MANY of us, including me, took too much off the long bedding surfaces only to find out other areas were still causing the trigger housing to hang up/not close properly.

There are TWO areas that MUST be closely checked to ensure you don't get "false draw" or "false trigger guard tension." You MUST clear these areas FIRST before anything else and they are:

1. The angled RELIEF cuts in the stock behind the two long bedding surfaces MUST NOT TOUCH the top rear of the trigger guard (TG). WAY too many times I've seen it where the front of the top of the TG bound up because these relief cuts were not made correctly. If you have a GI stock, look at how those cuts were made for a guide.

Put a THIN layer of grease on the top rear angled surfaces of the TG that go approximately 1 1/2" down from the hole on each side. If the grease leaves a rub mark on one or both angled surfaces in the stock, then you have to file the angled cuts forward more so they don't bind/rub. IF YOU DON"T DO THIS, you risk cutting the two long bedding surfaces too much and the TG WILL STILL bind up. BTW, once you get the TG to lock down, you STILL want to check for this and file the stock angled surfaces if they contact.

2. This is another "GOTCHA" you have to watch for and something that is pretty common in commercial stocks. At the rear of both sides of the long bedding surfaces on the Trigger Housing (TH), the metal is rounded going upwards. The reason for that is so that portion of the TH doesn't smack the stock too hard during recoil and crack through on either side.

Now I can't prove the following by documents or blueprints or quote you a written source, so this comes from long years of both Observational and Anecdotal evidence plus some basic mechanical evidence. What I am refering to is the fact the curved surfaces at the rear of the two long bedding surfaces of the TH can not and were never meant to be recoil surfaces. IOW, they were not tight up against the curved wood surfaces behind them on GI made stocks. Basic Mechanical design strongly argues against it because it would have a tendency to chip the stock there. About the only time you see signicant wear on these curved wooden surfaces on GI stocks are on stocks that are exceptionally loose from many thousands of rounds fired and that allows the receiver and the TH to go back far enough to indent the curved wooden surfaces. What I'm getting at is there should at most be LIGHT contact of the curved metal surfaces to the curved wooden surfaces of the stock at most and if there is a tiny clearance between them, that's fine. Now with this basic understanding, we go on.

On MOST commercial stocks, the curved surfaces at the rear of two long forward bedding surfaces do indeed rub too hard or actually bind up on the stock. You need to put a thin layer of grease on both and see how and where they contact the stock and then use a curved file to just take off enough wood so that the curved surfaces barely touch the wood or barely don't touch. You need to keep greasing the curved surfaces of the TH because they CAN start to indent when/if you eventually have to take wood off the two long forward bedding surfaces to allow the TG to close.


OK, once you have ensured there is only LIGHT or barely no contact between the curved surfaces at the rear of the two long bedding surfaces of the TH, now it is time to see if the FRONTS of those surfaces are binding/rubbing contacting the vertical wood surface in front of them. On many original heavily used WWII or Korean War stocks, we see cracks in the stock on one or both sides because the TH hit this surface in counter recoil. You want to file clearance between the entire front "plate" of the TH and this vertical wood surface. You only need to BARELY see light between them, so don't file away too much.

We just have to remember it is NOT the job of the TH to keep the receiver from loosening in the stock front to back. The wood surfaces ahead of the front receiver legs and behind the rear receiver legs do that necessary job. We only want a TINY amount of clearance ahead of and behind the long front bedding surfaces of the TH so sand, mud, etc. can not easily get into the action parts inside the stock.

Notice how we have NOT taken any wood off the two long forward bedding surfaces on the stock for the TH to close down yet? GOOD, because it is still too early to do so.

The NEXT thing we need to do is take a pair of dial calipers and put them INSIDE the stock and measure from the top of the stock to the two small bedding pads for the rear of the trigger housing. The measurement MUST NOT BE more than 1.725". If so this can/will cause the hammer not to set right and give you doubles or triples or worst case, full auto firing. In this case, you need to scrape/chisel/file off the rear pads until they are down below that distance. This used to be a HUGE problem with Boyd's stocks and though it is not nearly the problem it once was, it still needs to be inspected on every new commercial wood stock.

OK, do you have an early WWII era Machined TG with the ring at the rear on your TH? If so, you MUST check this on your stock. If you have the plain rounded end TG, then you don't HAVE to do this, though EVERY GI stock WAS cleared for the WWII TG's because they never knew which one would be on the TH even in the Post Korean War years. If you look at a GI stock, you will notice a clearance in the stock BEHIND or to the rear of the two small bedding surface pads. This clearance ensured the rear ring of the WWII machined TG's would not bind up and keep the TG from completely closing AND/OR not cause the TG to pop open once it was closed. This area must be checked against a GI stock and cut upwards more if it does not match a GI stock. Actually, when fitting the TG, we grease the top of the rear of the Machined TG to see if it is binding and clear it where the grease shows rubs.

Notice how we have still NOT taken any wood off the two long forward bedding surfaces on the stock for the TH to close down yet? GOOD, because it is still too early to do so.

Now this next one may throw you all for a loop, but now is the time to do this. Take the barreled receiver out of the stock and put it upside down on your bench. Take a Q Tip dipped in grease and grease the bottom of the receiver heel from the rear of both rear receiver legs going rearward, but stop about 1 1/8" from the rear of the receiver heel. We WANT the last or rear 1 1/8" of the receiver heel to contact the top of the stock!! The receiver heel must NOT touch the top of the stock where these greased areas can/will rub on the top of the stock for two reasons and they are:

1. This allows the TG to tighten down the receiver so only the rear of heel and the front of the receiver are pulled down on the stock. This actually SLIGHTLY bends the receiver so little you can't see it, but keeps the rear of the heel of the stock from twisting too much and not coming back to the same position.

2. (This one you may not believe, but allow me to explain. Grin.) GI stocks were ALWAYS made so there is at least light between the top of the stock and this area under the receiver heel for reason Number 1. and for this reason. There does not have to be MUCH clearance, but it needs to be there for another far lesser known reason. IF the bottom of the receiver heel hits hard or binds on the top of the stock in this area, it CAN and WILL cause functioning problems. Though not always, it often shows up as a "7th Round Stoppage." OK, OK, I KNOW the classic of a "7th Round Stoppage" was caused by them reaming out the front end of the receiver too much, BUT PLEASE BELIEVE ME the heel bearing hard in this area will ALSO do it. Can't even count the number of times people have brought commercial stocks to me that caused such problems and all I had to do was clearance this area under the receiver heel by filing it.

Keep some grease on this area of the receiver heel as you tighten the TG because sometimes it does not contact the top of the stock until you get close to the TG closing OR the TG actually does close. I use a file and sandpaper wrapped around a file to take the wood off so you don't cut too much wood off as you are fitting the TG. When you do get the TG to close correctly, you check a final time to see the heel is not contacting in this area and file/sand the stock if it does.

OK, I have been typing on this post off and on for some time and this is a good place to end for now. There will be even more posts on the stock before we are done, though.

Thanks from miatakix and budster

Last edited by Gus Fisher; June 21st, 2013 at 04:18 PM.
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