M14 Forum

adrbe

Lots of great wisdom Gus, and the stories are interesting and easy to read. Thanks for taking the time to share.

I especially like this quote: "I told them I would put up with almost anything to learn something I wanted to know." This applies to learning in so many ways. Dealing with difficult people, difficult and frustrating experiences, long and tiring hours and mistakes -- everything. If somebody is serious about learning (or achieving anything), nothing will stop them. This is the greatest power we posses as human beings: mental fortitude (stubbornness?). It was through this power that we have achieved so many incredible things, like landing on the moon for instance.

Thanks again. I look forward to more stories and wisdom, as your schedule permits.

Gus Fisher

Pliers.

Well, if I'm a freak on hammers, I am absolutely insane about pliers. (I'm completely over the deep end on 18th and early 19th century bench vises, pin vices and hand vises, but that is another story.) Straight and bent nose needle nose pliers, slip joint pliers, vise grips and all manner of pliers you can get at hardware stores will come in handy. For the most part, you don't have to pay for the VERY best ones, but don't buy the super cheap ones either.

Back in the days I was starting out, I HAUNTED flea markets and yard sales for OLD tools. I still do it when I can. If a tool was made in the 19th or early 20th century and still is in good working order, that normally tells you it is a QUALITY tool. I never cared if they were surface rusted or even had some pitting on them, though that always saddened me a bit. I would pay far less for a good tool and just have to clean and oil them a little.

What I ESPECIALLY look for at flea markets, yard sales and even antique stores and Ebay are known as "Box Joint" Pliers. This a way the pliers were made rather than what type of jaws they have. They are also known as Watchmakers' and Jeweler's pliers. This construction method goes back to the 17th century and is STILL considered the best way to make truly precision pliers. I look for the ones that do not have plastic over the handles as you find better ones that way for less. I have found really great smaller jeweler's pliers on Ebay where I paid as much or more for shipping as I did for the pliers. The great thing about the jeweler's or watchmaker's pliers are they often do not have any teeth on the jaws that won't mar something you need to hold onto while you work on it or hold it. In more recent years, the better to best ones come from Germany. However, they are well known in the English (and of course Canadian and Australian) tradition.

OK, I'm going to digress a little because this got me to thinking of when I decided I wanted to put together an 18th century Artificer's tool kit. Artificers were military Armorers then as well as repairing all kinds of things with the Armies in the Field. The terms Armorer and Armourer were also known, but not as well used. Anyway, on a trip to the gun shop at Colonial Williamsburg in the late 90's, I was asking what the correct designs were for 18th century turnscrews (what they called screwdrivers) and some other tools. What they use as a primary period source is "A Catalogue of Tools for Watch and Clock Makers by John Wyke of Liverpool" (Box Point Pliers are right on the front cover) However, 80 to 90 percent of the tools in this book would have been used by gunsmiths and various "Mechanics" of the period. They showed me a reproduction copy and I was absolutely FLOORED how many tools gunsmiths and machinists use today are listed in the book. I HAD TO HAVE A COPY. Well, it was out of print and for my first copy I paid $ 110.00 and shipping. The NEXT copy I bought was on Ebay for $ 45.00. HOWEVER, Winterthur is selling what must be an overrun for only $ 9.99 !!!! http://www.winterthurstore.com/produ...ool.html?tc=PA Here's a link to a couple of pages to give you an idea about the book. http://www.davistownmuseum.org/bioStubs.htm Gunsmiths and machinists will REALLY get a kick out of this book and trust me, it will give all of them some ideas on some tools they may not know about and many they would recognize or find in their tool boxes today. (I'm thinking of buying a quantity at that price and putting them away for future sales.)

The very first set of pliers you should buy to do gunsmithing is a set of "Paralled Jaw" or sometimes called "Lineman's" pliers. I would LOVED to have had a set like these years ago with non marring jaws. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6...LEL-JAW-PLIERS However, most of us have gotten along with somewhat less expensive ones and wrapped strong tape around the serrated jaws when required or bent sheet brass around the jaws. I even found a small set in the "fishing section" at Wal Mart a few years ago for about $ 6.00 and those are VERY handy.

I would then buy some box joint pliers and the ones with round jaws are really handy for grabbing springs. I would also buy the flat joint. Needle nose pliers don't have to be box joint, but it is great if they are. However, what I have found is REALLY better to have in the way of needle nose pliers is what are called "long nose" with small diameter jaws. Here is an example: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...QFCRCABCC3Z81F These will allow you to get sprngs and small parts from down inside actions.

You will also need various kinds of Slip ring pliers to work on some guns. I would not buy them till you need them, though.

Gus Fisher

Darn it, I COMPLETELY forgot some punches, so I guess I had best add them while I'm thinking of them.

As a gunsmith or machinist, you are ALWAYS dealing with small to tiny pins that hold parts in place. The one thing I've been surprised at when teaching so many Law Enforcement Armorers Courses is how few people know about "starting" punches. Starting punches are nothing more that punches with either SHORT drive pin sections OR dedicated punches to start tight/frozen/stuck pins out of their holes. It if often difficult to get a pin to "start" moving, but after you have moved it a little, you can much more easily drive it out. It is pretty easy to break a regular drive pin punch if you try to use it as a starting punch.

When I break a small pin punch, I file or grind the tip flat again and use it as a starter punch. Another neat trick is to go to yard sales and flea markets and buy "nail sets." You regrind them to the size you need and because the tip is so short and tapered down, they make some of the very best starting punches.

There are VERY special punches made for starting roll pin punches and I've found the WHOLE SET extremely useful and recommend you buy the whole set. I ALSO use these for solid pins to start them in holes. They are SUPER great to have to work on M14's, M1's and many other guns with roll pins or even for small solid pins. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7...LL-PIN-HOLDERS

Now if I may, I would like to pass on some advice when using regular (longer) drive pin punches and roll pin punches. What I teach is the "Tap and Twist" method as I call it. AFTER you get the pin moving with a starter punch, I tell my students to Tap the punch and then TWIST the punch as they drive out these pins. The reason to twist the punch after every time you tap it is so you don't get the punch stuck and that would mean you can break it on the very next time you hit it with the hammer. This is also EXTREMELY important on small roll pins.

I joke there should be a Hazard Warning on taking out the roll pin that holds the Ejector in an AR 15 bolt ! The 1/16" drive pin punch is too small and the 3/32" punch is too big for that pin, so most folks use the 1/16" punch. The PROBLEM is folks can get the 1/16" pin punch STUCK INSIDE the center of the roll pin and when that happens, they usually break the punch off inside the pin. You would not BELIEVE how hard that jams the pin up!! You often have to resort to drilling the pin out on a drill press. However, when we are teaching the classes, we USUALLY don't have access to a drill press. At that point, Charlie usually says "That's why I pay a gunsmith to help me at these courses" (with a wry grin on his face) and sends them to me. At a class in Jacksonville, FLorida, I spent almost four hours until I got the roll pin, with a broken pin punch stuck inside it, out of the bolt. AFter that fiasco, I make a POINT of teaching "Tap and Twist" EVERY time we take out tight roll pins. GRIN.

On the subject of roll pin punches, I was able to actually afford the entire set when they became available years ago. However, for most guys starting out, it is best to buy the sizes they need to work on the guns they work on. I am a FIRM believer in using these punches on roll pins so you don't bugger up the ends of the roll pins. This probably will be as important in the future as not buggering up screw heads has been traditonally. We were not issued these in our standard Infantry Armorer's repair kits and that is one battle I lost over the years, trying to get at least some of the smaller sizes added to "The Basic Armorer's Tool Box." Anyway, here's the link: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=5...LL-PIN-PUNCHES

There is one other type of punch that I have found much more useful over the years than I imagined and that is a set of alignment punches. The three piece set is good to have and not super expensive. Mine was a bit more expensive than this set, but it gives you an idea: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...5339_200305339 I really like these when I fit extended beavertail grip safeties on .45 pistols to both align and give some friction to show where I need to take more metal off the frames. They are not something you HAVE TO HAVE when you are starging out, though.

Well, I guess there is one other item in my pin punch drawer that I should mention and that is cold chisels. I have three small ones that came in sets of punches I bought over the years and that's the way I would buy them. Sears sometimes has special sales on pin punch sets with a couple small cold chisels and that is the way to go. If you REALLY need a cold chisel for something else, then buy it when you need it.

stainless1911

When I take the slide apart on the XD, I do it in the shower stall with the drain shut, in case the thing flies apart. I once tried that in the kitchen, and the back cover came off and hit me in the nose, needless to say, it took me a while to find all the parts. That back cover had actually fallen through a crack in the floor, and was laying in the dirt under the trailer. The pin guide thing was on the microwave.

Gus Fisher

Now THAT'S what I call using your head to adapt and overcome a problem!

stainless1911

Thanks. Nothing better than a small, white, closed, perfectly clean room to drop a little black part in.

Essayons

A very few years ago Brownells would let someone with a C&R FFL sign up as a dealer. That's the main reason I got my C&R

Gus Fisher

Hand Files, Part I

In an earlier post I already mentioned one of the first things you should buy is a set of Needle files. What I forgot to mention is I suggest they be FINE cut rather than medium cut. You will get more use out of the fine cut on metal than the medium cut. MAN, do needle files come in all price ranges. Cheap POS sets of 6 can be had for about $ 3.00 - 9.00 and DON'T waste your money. The best sets can run from $ 120.00 to over 300.00. Here is something I suggest at a mininum. http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/NNSRIT...-SearchResults BTW, keep MSC in mind for MANY things you will need to buy. OK, if you can afford to spend a little more at first, then consider this set: http://www.ottofrei.com/store/produc...cat=892&page=1 Believe me, the cost of this set is MORE than justified by both the quality of the files and how long they last. You probably should look around to see iwhere you can get the best price, though.

The NUMBER ONE FILE I use most often and so much I've had to replace them many times over the years is remarkably not that expensive. It is a Nicholson File 8"L Blade Handy File. http://www.amazon.com/Nicholson-0660.../dp/B00002N7RN One side is smooth cut and the other side is medium cut. This file works GREAT on wood and metal. I like the fact it is FLAT all along the length of the file. I keep THREE of them at all times. One for wood, another for brass or aluminum and the third for steel. Think I had best explain that, though.

I'm sure this tip came from either a Machinist's book or from one or more Machinists. This advice may go back to the days they had to hand cut the teeth in files, but it is as relevent today as back then. When you have buy a new file for iron/steel, it is best to "break the teeth in" by filing on some brass. What I think what that does is the teeth that have burr edges or stick out the most will wear down more evenly. So I have made "scabbards" out of cardboard wrapped with masking tape for my Handy Files and marked one each for wood, brass and steel. A NEW Handy file almost always goes into the "WOOD" scabbard first. Then as it dulls on wood, I put it in the BRASS scabbard and move the file from the BRASS Scabbard to the STEEL scabbard. When the file in the STEEL scabbard is dull, I buy a new file and put it in the WOOD scabbard and move the other two riles up in order. That way, I almost always have a good sharp file for what I'm filing. At only around $ 8.00 a file, this is not at all expensive. Oh, I also buy Stanley Handy Files as well, when that is what I find at Home Depot or Lowes.

Most of the files and rasps I use for average work the most are Nicholsen, Stanley and even some Kobalt brand that Lowes stocks. I like them in that order as well. I will buy more expensive files for certain things I do more often or need the higher quality, though. I have lusted after a couple patternmaker's files for years at about $ 60.00 each, but I just don't do enough rough stock shaping that I can justify the expense.

I wish I could tell you the "10 most often used files/rasps" that you need at a minimum, but since so much depends on what guns you are going to work, I just can't do it. Most of the harder to find files I buy are from MSC. I do buy some from Brownell's, though, when they have something that I can't find elsewhere or REALLY need it when I am placing an order. It is just you are going to pay more from Brownell's for the same files you normally can find elsewhere.

For those who don't know about types of files, here is a good link to study: http://www.grainger.com/tps/hand_too...election_guide

I have a large number of rasps, BUT I found that I don't use many of them much at all. Some of mine are 30 or 40 years old. They cut SO deep into wood, that you really have to be careful of using them. Actually, I use carbide cutters and sanding cartridge rolls more in my in my Handy Grinder than I do rasps. I probably use Stanley SureForm files more than rasps and I don't use them much at all. When just starting out, you really don't need any rasps. Buy them IF and when you need them.

MAGICUT files. I have REALLY grown to love these things when I need to take a lot of wood off fast. They also work well on MILD steel. I would suggest you buy this cut RATHER than rasps.

Auto Body Files. Now you may be wondering if I've gone off my rocker again and/or why a gunsmith would have use for these. I don't remember how I came across the first one I bought in 1974. You want to hold these at an angle to the direction you file and when you do, wood just SHEARS off. They will also work great on fiberglass. I often use these on the inside sides of the Mag Well on M14 stocks and yes, even to draw file the stock liners down, though that wears the file out faster. When I first got one of these and tried it on some scrap wood, Mike Gingher said there was an almost Evil Leer on my face. Using that file made me a lot faster cleaning up stocks after we fiberglassed them. I have also used these to thin down "fat" Boyd's or Birch stocks for both Garands and M14's.

Lathe Files. I LOVE large lathe files when I am draw filing octagaonal barrels. Though another great file for this kind of work is the Draw File that Brownells sells and you can sometimes find it other places: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=5...duct/DRAW-FILE

Double cut files. This is the cut I choose most often when working metal as it removes metal faster. It will not leave a fine finish on steel, though.

Single cut files. I consider these more like "smoothing" or "polishing" files. I have a few in a few sizes for this work.

If there is one thing I DON'T like about some files is when they are thinner at the front than at the back. I don't know why, but that messes me ALL up. So I do my best not to buy this type of file.

My first preference in files is they be uniform in thickess and of uniform width, when I can get them for the work I want.

Oh, I'm sure there are good uses for "Knife Edge" files, but I have YET to run into one for gunsmithing. I have gotten them in file sets when it was less expensive to buy a set of files than it was to buy two or three individual files.

Barrett Files. Every so often, this shape can come in REAL handy, but I usually don't buy them. However, in the 18th century, this pattern was EXTREMELY popular with Gunsmiths, so I will be buying some for my 18th century Artificer's Tool Kit. If I run into something very useful, I'll report back on it.

Can't think of anything else right now on this, so will close and add more later when/if it comes to me.

Gus Fisher

Good Humour, but that reminds me.

Anyone who wants to become a gunsmith HAS to learn "The Gunsmith's Position." That is down on the floor on all fours while you feel around for a part you dropped. Actually a neat trick to find a small part on the floor is to LAY a flashlight on the floor. The part you can't see will then throw a shadow and you can find it faster. A magnet also helps for this.

Gus Fisher

Thought I would switch from tools back to starting out, for this post.

Once you get a set of GOOD screwdrivers and punches and detailed disassembly/reassembly books, the first thing to do is practice on your own guns. However, there IS a caveat warning to that. On some shotgun trigger groups, they are not really intended to be taken apart much and often the factory says to replace the whole group instead of trying to fix them. (This is especially true of the trigger groups that have a plastic housing/triggerguard.) I have done a good deal of work on Remington M870 and M1100 Shotguns and never had to disassemble the trigger groups, for example. What this will do is begin to give you the "feel" for how gun parts work and interact with each other. Also, since detail strippng and cleaning guns is "bread and butter" work for most gunsmiths, this will give you more experience and you can develop speed without sacrificing quality. I know gunsmiths who run "specials" for cleaning guns just before and just after hunting season and that is a good money maker for them.

Once you have stripped, cleaned and properly lubricated your own guns, what next? Well, going back to the ancient days when an Apprentice made a gun for himself that he would show to others as proof of his work - that is important to modern day gunsmiths as well. Do some work on your own guns that you can show to others. This could include restocking, glass bedding, adding a recoil pad, etc. You can upgrade your own guns while you are making examples of your work to show others.

Before I go further, I better talk about getting an FFL or Federal Firearms License. Legally, you have to have an FFL to work on other peoples' guns and get paid for it. You USED to be able to do that pretty easy, even if you did your gunsmithing in your residence. However, things have changed drastically over the years. NOW you have to get permission from the Chief of Police or Sheriff's Office and in many counties, you have to petition the County Commissioners. God help you if you have an anti gun LE Official or Country Commissioners and ESPECIALLY if you are trying for an FFL in your residence. In the last country I lived in, I had to go through the Commissioners. IF my residence was in the agricultural area of the county, it would have only cost me an initial County fee of $50.00. However, since I lived in a Residential Area, I got whacked for the same price grocrery and retail stores had to pay which was $ 400.00. I ALSO had to have two parking spaces beside or in back of my house. You could not count parking on the street. So you REALLY need to do your homework and check out your city or county planning and business offices to find out all the hoops you have to jump through and what it will cost in fees and a city or county business license. THEN you have to pay for the FFL and that is NOT cheap anymore. You have to keep STRICT records on the guns and you can be inspected on a yearly basis by the BATF. Now, on that last point - if you do not actually sell guns then BATF may not ever come to inspect you. I had my FFL for three years and no one inspected me, so I called the BATF. They told me they were well aware I only ran a gunsmithing business, that I did not sell guns and they did not plan on visiting and inspecting my books. BUT, that is different in different areas of the country. What you could easily run into is living in a city or county that REFUSES to allow you to have a home gunsmithing business. If that is true, you would have to rent or buy a shop and that is NOT something most people can afford when they start out. So really do your homework to see if you can have a home shop and what it will cost in fees, business licenses, etc. You MAY find you can not afford to do it unless you move somewhere else. OH, I'm not saying it is impossible to have a home gunsmithing business if you live in an apartment, but you will normally find they won't let you do it. You may have to rent or buy a house somewhere where you can have a gunsmithing business.

The next thing you have to consider, especially nowadays, is liability insurance. That is VERY expensive and most folks can't afford it until they go into full time gunsmithing. I am not a lawyer, but the very least you can do to protect yourself is to incorporate your business. Corporation law is different form state to state, so that is also something you really need to thoroughly investigate. However, the very best thing you can do to protect yourself on liability is to 1. Do good work, 2. NOT take or do work that is suspect for safety and 3. Turn down some work you either don't feel comfortable with or you don't feel comfortable with the customer.

Don't forget that you have to include the costs of fee's, licenses, insurance, tool replacement, supplies, lighting, heat, air conditioning and all other shop overhead in your hourly wage BEFORE you can make any money. If it costs you $12.00 to $ 20.00 an hour for these things (or more), you can not do work for $ 20.00 to $ 30.00 an hour and make any money.

Unless you went through an apprenticeship program or a formal school, you can not make a whole lot of money per hour when you start out, but DO NOT work for free unless it is on your family's guns. Now, doing work for TRADE for things you need is a good way to go, though. The one problem most gunsmiths have all their lives is on charging for their labor. We either undervalue our time or spend too much time for what we charge. MANY of us spend way too much time TALKING about the work with customers and wind up not having enough time to DO the work. You do not get paid for talking about the work.

When I was the Instructor for the NRA Gunsmithing Course on the M1A, I was EXTREMELY fortunate to have Reid Coffeld as one of my students. Reid ran publishing Brownell's catalogue for many years. He saw in me a kindred spirit and WARNED me about spending too much time talking. Before he went to work for Brownells, he had a gunsmithing business. However, he spent his days TALKING with customers about doing gun work and then tried to make a living a night fixing them. Well, you don't make enough money and you will have no family or social life if you do that. Reid wound up having to close his gun shop and going to work for Brownell's to make a living. MANY gunsmiths have run into similar problems and had to quit the work for the same reason.

So how DO you keep down on the time talking with customers and actually working on guns so you can make money? What would be ideal for many people starting out is if you could get a back room workshop in a gun shop. You can also work off their FFL, so you would not have to have one yourself. The counter clerks talk with the customers and take the guns in and you can spend most of your time doing the work. If you need to talk to the customer, then CALL them when you have time. If you can't do that and have an FFL, you can get with local gun shops and stop by on maybe a weekly basis to pick up guns for work and drop off what you have fixed. If there is enough work, then stop by more often. If you have an FFL, you may also be able to work on Law Enforcement firearms by contracting with LE agencies in your area to do annual or required maintenance on their firearms. That can provide income during slower months. If you have a home gunsmithing business I STRONGLY advise you not to have customers come to your shop. You can't believe how much time that will waste AND that is an extreme security risk nowadays. I also STRONGLY ADVISE you not give out your home phone number except to other business's or suppliers. You will get calls all through the night from customers and that will restrict your time to do work when you still have a primary other job and ruin your family life. Before the advent of cell phones, most of us used to get a separate phone number for the business. Nowadays, I advise you get a cell phone JUST for the business or better still, do your communications through EMail, if you can type. What I have found works great for me is I go to a major gun show about once a month. I work on guns right at the show and usually pay for my tables from the work I do there. That also gives you a chance to talk with your customers where you are not losing money in your shop. You can take in the guns you can't fix there and return them at future gun shows. That KEEPS UPS and FEDEX costs down AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, does not give them a chance to LOSE guns. Both UPS and FEDEX "temporarily lost" rifles on me. It cost me SO MUCH in grief, time and money that I will NEVER accept or send guns that way again while I have a home gunsmithing business.

Do NOT get into the habit of "meeting someone" to pick up or deliver their guns. You MAY be waiting in a car for over an hour when it is 98 degrees before the guy shows up. You also can't expect just to hand him the gun and get your money. You are expected to talk a while about it. That can take you away from your shop for one to three hours that you will not get paid for. I have and will meet someone at times in an unusual case, but I try to keep that down to the barest minimum possible.

One other thing about gunsmithing is you had best count on paying for something you screw up and not charging the customer for it. Even as many barrels I have mounted and chambered over the years, I have an otherwise brand new NM M14 barrel, NM Garand barrel and an M1 Carbine barrel that I screwed up the chambers on. The customers for the first two barrels never knew about it as I bought replacement barrels. On the carbine barrel, I had to call the customer and explain I messed it up and asked what barrel he wanted free of charge. Fortunately it was NOT a collector barrel and the gun was a plinker, so I was able to buy a commercial barrel for it. That barrel was more accurate than the barrel I messed up, so that was one happy customer. You HAVE to figure in a little extra money into jobs like barreling as you are GOING to screw one up occasionally and have to replace it free of charge.

Have I completely scared you off from becoming a gunsmith yet? If not, then I'll go on.

Most older gunsmithing books talk about buying cheap, broken guns and fixing them. That was fairly solid advice even when I was starting out as there were a lot of guns that were MADE to be repaired from the 20's through the 50's. However, there are a lot of guns out there today that are just not worth the labor to fix them. This is something SUPER IMPORTANT you have to learn - which guns are worth fixing and which are not. When I first began working on muzzleloaders, a LOT of people would ask me to fix percussion muzzle loading or old Damascus steel double barrel shotguns. Folks, you can EASILY run into three to five times the cost/worth of the gun to fix many of them. You do NOT want to have to try resoldering barrels when you are first starting out. You also can not fix deeply rusted metal. Too many of those guns were crianked out of Belgium and Europe and while they did good service for the orginal owners, they are just plain flat worn out and not worth fixing. The only thing I will do on these guns anymore is offer to CLEAN and preserve the wood and metal and do an inspection for a fixed labor cost. THEN I will give a written list of what has to be done and a labor estimate. Most of the time people will not want to spend the money to have the work done, but at least you preserved a family heirloom and made something for your effort.

What you MAY be able to find are .22 rifles from the 30's or 40's that were made to be fixed and you can pick up at a yard sale or flea market for not much money because it has a broken firing pin or something. You DO have to be careful not to buy a gun that was not well known as you won't be able to get parts. However, if it is even a cheap Winchester or Remington rifle, you can usually find parts for them.

Oh, that leads me to discussing making gun parts. For ALL but the most expensive guns or collector pieces, you usually DO NOT want to try to make replacement parts. You can't make any money spending three or four hours making a part that would cost less than $ 30.00. I ALSO know some folks who made some parts for new guns when they first came out like NM triggers, etc. For the most part, that will also be a waste of time. Now, many gunsmiths make MORE money on making parts than they do on working on guns. However, they make large numbers of parts and they have a mill, lathe and heat treating oven to do it. If you can come up with something and sell it to a major gun business like Brownells in quantity, that is a great way to make some money and you would not have to have an FFL.

Reid Coffeld did an excellent series of gunsmithing articles in Shotgun News a couple years ago on starting out on gunsmithing. He made the case that by buying a Mauser 98 surplus rifle that was not in great condition, one could restock, rebarrel and do some custom work on it and use the gun to show off your work. I think that's an excellent idea, if you are going to do bolt action rifle work or even general gunsmithing. You will do almost every kind of gunsmithing in that kind of rifle. You can even rust blue the rifle to learn how to do it.

OK, I'm getting tired and still fighting this virus, so I will close at this point.

bigkicks

Great information!!

hammonje

Awesome thread. Thanks for taking the time to pass along your genius to us. I wish I would have done something in the gunsmithing trade. I am a molecular biologist/professor of pediatric infectious diseases and pretty good with my hands, but lack the knowledge, mentorship, and resources to experiment and learn. Wish I could quit my job and move to Colorado for the schooling to start. Not possible unfortunately....too many darn bills.

How can a guy learn to work on service rifles (M1, M1 Carbine, M14, 03/03a3) as a past time????? Can I take my two week vacation and be a slave in your shop????? :)

Lazerus2000

A bunch of great information from Gus about HOW to become a Gunsmith.

But really, the big questions should be
WHY would any sane and sensible person want to become a gunsmith?

Not many smiths I know are getting rich and/or famous.
And if it ever does happen,
It ain't gonna happen over night!

It usually takes years of training, followed by more years of hard work for low pay, before you get established. And more years before you can make a reputation for yourself that will draw in lots of rich customers, lining up to send their guns in from far away, and willing to pay BIG BUCKS [ and/or WAIT ?months/years?] for your expert services ...
and then bragging about your exclusive "brand name".

Do you really have the patience, mechanical skills, patience, business acumen, patience, customer relations skills, patience, financial resourcesand PATIENCE,
it takes to eventually become a successful "Professional GunSmiter"?

Working on guns can be a great JOY, when it is just your hobby,
and you can choose which interesting and exciting task you want to do today.

BUT it is not so much fun when it is THE JOB,
just a job,
where you have to do whatever paying work that comes through the door.

Not always the glamorous work, but the boring sights and trigger jobs and stock bedding. The boring same ol' same ol' stuff that pays the bills.
The JOB that you must do every day,
day in,
day out.

Hopefully you have a high threshold for boredom,
lots of stubborn persistence,
and PATIENCE,
to go along with your all your other skills.

If you've read this far ...
well maybe you do have ?patience?

The next big question is what TYPE of gunsmith do you want to be??

I was once a Gunsmith myself,
licensed by the Canadian Govt to LEGALLY work on firearms for payment. I did it for over a decade, in a mid sized city where there were three gun stores and a few other licensed gun smiths. I suppose my work was acceptable, because all three stores referred customers to me, and so did the other local smiths. But even with three gun stores referring customers to me, and even though my hourly rate was decent, I never made more than a "fair" living at gunsmithing. I just could not generate enough hours in a week from the local customers.

the old saying,
"GO BIG OR GO BROKE" is just as true for a gunsmith as it is for any other small business.

All of us legally licensed gunsmiters specialised in different facets of the trade, so we were not actually cut throat competitors. Because I was ex-military, and an IPSC and three gun competitor, I was interested mostly in PRACTICAL guns. I built mostly IPSC pistols, some practical rifles [ AR 15s, and later on M14s ] and shotguns, and Ruger revolvers. There was another pistol smith, an ex-cop, who specialised in S&W revolvers for PPC. Another Colorado School of gunsmithing trained smith who did a bit of everything. And then there was the old European trained gentleman, who literally could make a shotgun receiver from a block of steel with only a set of files and a vise.

These other gunsmiths would send me the type of jobs they didn't want to do. And I would refer jobs outside my specialty or experience to them as well. They didn't like working on IPSC stuff, and I certainly wasn't comfortable working on a double shotgun that cost more than I made in a year ... adjusting the castoff on a fine European walnut stock, or tightening the O/U action.

Gunsmithing is a BIG field.
My best advice, if I can't talk you out of even starting down the path,
would be to pick your speciality, get good at it, and SPECIALISE!!

That old European gunsmith eventually retired, and I was invited into one of the gun stores, to use the well equipped proper gunsmith shop in the basement. I did that for several years, until the gun shop owner retired himself. Not rich, but not broke either ... the shop was worth more as real estate that it was as a viable business selling guns.

That particular gun shop became a successful Yuppy diner ...
which tells you something about selling guns as a business.

I then went back to school and became a computer geek. While my hourly rate as a gunsmiter was about the same as my hourly rate as a geek, the yearly income was immensely better working in computers. And when I eventually got a job working for the Govt, the retirement benefits were much MUCH better. These days I get a govt pension, and when I feel like it, I work on my own guns strictly as a hobby.

Which is a nice way to have things.

SO,
you could call me a "failure" as a career gunsmith ... or as a business man .. or both.
Instead of going big, I got out.

Not to say that it can't be done. Some gunsmiths actually DO make it big. The ex-cop pistolsmith turned his cop connections into a successful local Police and Military supply store, which eventually went nation wide ... with his name on the buildings. He went BIG, and was by most definitions, a "success" as a gunsmith AND as a businessman.

But then he eventually sold his "NAME" to a corporation, and now he is back in a small shop, doing gunsmithing basically as a hobby. A hobby that pays for itself ...
and maybe even makes a few bucks.
Which is a nice way to have things.

Another friend of mine, a European trained machinest, started out as a gunsmith in a BIGGER city. He does SUPERB WORK ... HE IS BASICALLY AN ARTIST IN METAL. He also had a few good breaks in the partners he hooked up with, and in the business decisions he made. He now is manufacturing guns, gun parts, and accessories which he sells all around the world. He tells me his biggest sales are in Europe, not in Canada or the US.
Which is a nice way to have things.

So there you have it.
My personal experience at gunsmithing as a precautionary tale,
and two real life success stories.

But to any young guy who asks me about becoming a gunsmith,
I tell them that if they want a career instead of a hobby,
they should go into computers instead.

Faster women
prettier horses,
and MORE MONEY!!!

And once you make a bundle in computers,
you will have enough $$$$ to hire the work out to a pro gunsmiter,
OR,
do the work yourself ...
AS A HOBBY!!!

BTDT,
got the arthritis and the lazer corrected vision,
don't go there no more,
[;)
LAZ 1

Gus Fisher

Folks, Laz brought up some EXCELLENT POINTS!!!!!

I honestly could not do what I do if I were not retired from the military and drawing the pension. In my case, I have some service related medical problems where it is good for me to be able to do this stuff, but I am not bringing in money hand over fist by any measure.

For most people, gunsmithing should be kept as a hobby if even a serious hobby, as they will not be able to make a living at it.

Gus Fisher

I really can't take normal time to apprentice someone as I would not make enough money while doing it.

What I strongly suggest is look up the NRA gunsmithing seminars to see if they have something close enough you can go to.

Failing that, get Jerry Kuhnhausen's books and learn on your own guns. I can help with questions from time to time on the forum as I'm sure other folks will do as well.