M14 Forum

Hgunner · November 16th, 2011, 08:53 AM

Pushing Shooters Off Public Lands
November 16, 2011 RSS Feed Print Gun owners who have historically been able to use public lands for target practice would be barred from potentially millions of acres under new rules drafted by the Interior Department, the first major move by the Obama administration to impose limits on firearms.

Officials say the administration is concerned about the potential clash between gun owners and encroaching urban populations who like to use same land for hiking and dog walking.

"It's not so much a safety issue. It's a social conflict issue," said Frank Jenks, a natural resource specialist with Interior's Bureau of Land Management, which oversees 245 million acres. He adds that urbanites "freak out" when they hear shooting on public lands. [Read about the subpoena issued as a result of Operation Fast and Furious.]

If the draft policy is finally approved, some public access to Bureau lands to hunters would also be limited, potentially reducing areas deer, elk, and bear hunters can use in the West.

Conservationists and hunting groups, however, are mounting a fight. One elite group of conservationists that advises Interior and Agriculture is already pushing BLM to junk the regulations, claiming that shooters are being held to a much higher safety standard than other users of public lands, such as ATV riders.

"They are just trying to make it so difficult for recreational shooters," said Gary Kania, vice president of the Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation. His group is one of several, including the National Wildlife Foundation, Cabela's and Ducks Unlimited, on the Wildlife and Hunting Heritage Conservation Council fighting the new rules. During a two-day meeting ending this afternoon, they are drafting their own changes to the BLM rules.

"What we probably are going to be looking forward to is a reversal," said Kania. Asked about how to handle people who freak out when they hear shots on public lands, Kania said, "I don't know how to quanitify 'freaking out,'" and noted that he's seen people panicing when fly fishing in float tubes but nobody wants to ban then from rivers.

BLM actually invited the fight, seeking the council's comments. But officials suggested to Whispers that no changes are being planned to the draft regulations.

Over five pages, the draft BLM regulations raise concerns about how shooting can cause a "public disturbance." They also raise worries about how shooting and shooters can hurt plants and litter public lands.

This is the key paragraph foes say could lead to shooters being kicked off public lands:

"When the authorized officer determines that a site or area on BLM-managed lands used on a regular basis for recreational shooting is creating public disturbance, or is creating risk to other persons on public lands; is contributing to the defacement, removal or destruction of natural features, native plants, cultural resources, historic structures or government and/or private property; is facilitating or creating a condition of littering, refuse accumulation and abandoned personal property is violating existing use restrictions, closure and restriction orders, or supplementary rules notices, and reasonable attempts to reduce or eliminate the violations by the BLM have been unsuccessful, the authorized officer will close the affected area to recreational shooting." [Check out new Debate Club about whether Congress needs to overhaul gun trafficking laws.]

Squeezing out shooters, says the draft policy, is needed because, "As the West has become more populated, recreational shooters now often find themselves in conflict with other public lands users, and the BLM is frequently called on to mediate these conflicts."

At yesterday's meeting at Interior, the council balked at the BLM draft regulations, adding that the Obama administration was not being fair to shooters on the issue of safety.

In a draft retort to BLM, the council said other users of public land aren't required to be as safe as shooters. They note that shooters have a much lower injury rate than others, like ATV users. "The policy fails to recognize that recreational shooting has one of the lowest incidences of death and injury compared to virtually any other outdoor recreational activity. The policy is prejudicial and discriminatory to target shooters as compared to other recreationists," said the council's draft response, expected to be finalized today.

What's more, the group charged that the BLM is acting in a contradictory fashion, encouraging the shooting sports while limiting shooting areas.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/was...f-public-lands

Swamp Rat · November 16th, 2011, 09:02 AM

"The first major move by the administration to impose new limits on firearms"

That would be Operation F&F.

And this is nothing compared to what's coming in big boss's second term.

adrbe · November 16th, 2011, 09:46 AM

I hate to say it, but shooters share some of the responsibility for these attitudes. Too many don't respect the land and leave their trash everywhere, destroy trees, don't follow BLM shooting rules, etc. Many BLM ranges have been closed here in Colorado due to irresponsible shooting. Shame.

CAVman · November 16th, 2011, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hgunner

Pushing Shooters Off Public Lands
November 16, 2011 RSS Feed Print Gun owners who have historically been able to use public lands for target practice would be barred from potentially millions of acres under new rules drafted by the Interior Department, the first major move by the Obama administration to impose limits on firearms.

Officials say the administration is concerned about the potential clash between gun owners and encroaching urban populations who like to use same land for hiking and dog walking.

"It's not so much a safety issue. It's a social conflict issue," said Frank Jenks, a natural resource specialist with Interior's Bureau of Land Management, which oversees 245 million acres. He adds that urbanites "freak out" when they hear shooting on public lands. [Read about the subpoena issued as a result of Operation Fast and Furious.]

If the draft policy is finally approved, some public access to Bureau lands to hunters would also be limited, potentially reducing areas deer, elk, and bear hunters can use in the West.

Conservationists and hunting groups, however, are mounting a fight. One elite group of conservationists that advises Interior and Agriculture is already pushing BLM to junk the regulations, claiming that shooters are being held to a much higher safety standard than other users of public lands, such as ATV riders.

"They are just trying to make it so difficult for recreational shooters," said Gary Kania, vice president of the Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation. His group is one of several, including the National Wildlife Foundation, Cabela's and Ducks Unlimited, on the Wildlife and Hunting Heritage Conservation Council fighting the new rules. During a two-day meeting ending this afternoon, they are drafting their own changes to the BLM rules.

"What we probably are going to be looking forward to is a reversal," said Kania. Asked about how to handle people who freak out when they hear shots on public lands, Kania said, "I don't know how to quanitify 'freaking out,'" and noted that he's seen people panicing when fly fishing in float tubes but nobody wants to ban then from rivers.

BLM actually invited the fight, seeking the council's comments. But officials suggested to Whispers that no changes are being planned to the draft regulations.

Over five pages, the draft BLM regulations raise concerns about how shooting can cause a "public disturbance." They also raise worries about how shooting and shooters can hurt plants and litter public lands.

This is the key paragraph foes say could lead to shooters being kicked off public lands:

"When the authorized officer determines that a site or area on BLM-managed lands used on a regular basis for recreational shooting is creating public disturbance, or is creating risk to other persons on public lands; is contributing to the defacement, removal or destruction of natural features, native plants, cultural resources, historic structures or government and/or private property; is facilitating or creating a condition of littering, refuse accumulation and abandoned personal property is violating existing use restrictions, closure and restriction orders, or supplementary rules notices, and reasonable attempts to reduce or eliminate the violations by the BLM have been unsuccessful, the authorized officer will close the affected area to recreational shooting." [Check out new Debate Club about whether Congress needs to overhaul gun trafficking laws.]

Squeezing out shooters, says the draft policy, is needed because, "As the West has become more populated, recreational shooters now often find themselves in conflict with other public lands users, and the BLM is frequently called on to mediate these conflicts."

At yesterday's meeting at Interior, the council balked at the BLM draft regulations, adding that the Obama administration was not being fair to shooters on the issue of safety.

In a draft retort to BLM, the council said other users of public land aren't required to be as safe as shooters. They note that shooters have a much lower injury rate than others, like ATV users. "The policy fails to recognize that recreational shooting has one of the lowest incidences of death and injury compared to virtually any other outdoor recreational activity. The policy is prejudicial and discriminatory to target shooters as compared to other recreationists," said the council's draft response, expected to be finalized today.

What's more, the group charged that the BLM is acting in a contradictory fashion, encouraging the shooting sports while limiting shooting areas.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/was...f-public-lands

THIS...is a Serious Issue!
It is one that all of Us Here should take 'ownership' of...
The U.S. Dep't of Interior, Especially it's Bureau of Land Management division...has Huge Federal Lands primarily across the Western U.S.

http://www.blm.gov/nstc/jurisdictions/

We here should not be 'debating' that this initiative is 'Anti-Gun'....It Is!
It is a Major effort by the current Administration to Change what they perceive as the "Gun Culture" of the United States.
If in the future there is No Place To Shoot, There Will Be No Shooters!

Obviously the Statement that Urbanites Freak Out When People Shoot On Public Lands Is 95% B.S., Because 95% of BLM Land Is NOT next-door to URBANITES! Interior/BLM is attempting to use a few isolated cases of 'conflict' to boot-strap new regulations that apply everywhere!

Anyway, THIS particular issue should not be just...one of many!
It should not be viewed as just...'politics as usual', it's more important than that!
We should not get bogged down in the current primary races or even bogged down on Obama himself...It WILL Distract Us From Actively Fighting This Initiative!
I sincerely ask that the members here do some serious research as to what this would mean in YOUR Backyard!
Then Post It!
And Then Let's Go After It!
While I can guarantee that Wyoming's 3 Votes In Congress Will Be 100% United AGAINST This, That's Not Good Enough! Their VOTES Are Needed To Back Up Other Votes In Congress!

More Later!

CAVman in WYoming

kabanchik · November 16th, 2011, 10:00 AM

With ANY kind of determined effort, we will be pushing Barry out of his current residence and office, LONG before he'll be able to push shooters off public lands.

54321 · November 16th, 2011, 10:13 AM

I know someone from another forum that has shot at a gravel pit in W. Washington for years that is on Nat. Froest land. Last week it was posted that it will be closed and is going to be the beginning of a "bike tour" route.

Hgunner · November 16th, 2011, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAVman

It is a Major effort by the current Administration to Change what they perceive as the "Gun Culture" of the United States.
If in the future there is No Place To Shoot, There Will Be No Shooters!

CAVman in WYoming

Darn CAVman, that's sounds an awful lot like a "Conspiracy Theory"...........................................

Seriously..just funn'in with yah.......

Depth Afield · November 16th, 2011, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrbe

I hate to say it, but shooters share some of the responsibility for these attitudes. Too many don't respect the land and leave their trash everywhere, destroy trees, don't follow BLM shooting rules, etc. Many BLM ranges have been closed here in Colorado due to irresponsible shooting. Shame.

Yep. I got the nod from a LEO to go shooting on the state land here in Utah. What I found when I got to the suitable shooting spots was a damned disgrace.

CAVman · November 16th, 2011, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kabanchik

With ANY kind of determined effort, we will be pushing Barry out of his current residence and office, LONG before he'll be able to push shooters off public lands.

That's exactly the thing I was concerned about...
1. It won't take that long...Administratively...to do this...(and it has already
Started!) It IS Part Of...The 'Below The Radar' Campaign of The
Administration! I said here, way back when...The ANTI's Would Attempt
To Use...Issues Like "Safety", Portrayed By Them As Reasonable,
Rational, Incremental Measures...That SOUND Good To Too Many Folks!
The Election is NEXT November...and then a New Administration Doesn't
Take Office Until January, 2013!
2. It's a Mistake To Hope/Pray/Work To Elect Somebody Else, and then
Expect Just THAT to Turn The Bureaucracy Around!
3. It's Also POSSIBLE That HE Will Get Re-Elected, And Then What?
4. Too Many Guys, Here and Elsewhere, Are Feeling 'Defeatist' And There- fore NOT Participating in 'Politics', Because It Doesn't Help/Do Anything
Anyway!

I heard on TV at Noon That Rick Perry's Latest 'Gimmick' Is That Congress
should only Work 1/2 Time And Get Paid 1/2 Time! Sounds Great, Huh?
EXCEPT THAT---It Will Leave The Federal Executive Branch/Administrative Agencies In Charge!

CAVman in WYoming

CAVman · November 16th, 2011, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hgunner

Darn CAVman, that's sounds an awful lot like a "Conspiracy Theory"...........................................

Seriously..just funn'in with yah.......

Actually...I SAID...I Believe In A LOT Of Conspiracies!...This Being One Of Them!

I Just DON'T Believe: THIS Is Part of The 'Illuminati' Conspiracy! OR That EVERYTHING Is All Part Of One Grand Conspiracy of The 300 Families, etc!!!

AND...I Don't Think We Should Just P(i)ss and Moan About This---And WAIT For The 'Revolution'!

This Is Something Gun Owners, Shooters, And Sportsmans CAN BEAT!

CAVman in WYoming

CAVman · November 16th, 2011, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Depth Afield

Yep. I got the nod from a LEO to go shooting on the state land here in Utah. What I found when I got to the suitable shooting spots was a damned disgrace.

I Fully Agree With Both You and ADRBE(above)That It IS A Shame And A Disgrace And I Have Stated That In The Past!

No Doubt The ANTI's Will Add 'PUBLIC LANDS BEING TRASHED' TO 'SAFETY' AND NOISE ISSUES!!!

BUT...Is That REALLY The Issue? You Don't Believe That's Why The Issue Is Being Pushed Now, Do You?

It's A Red-Herring...

IF A Bill Were To Be Introduced In Congress Setting Up a System Of Public Ranges On BLM Land That Would Ensure Well-Regulated And Clean Shooting Ranges, You KNOW It Wouldn't Stop The Opposition For A Second!

Let's Not Let Ourselves Get Distracted...It's ANTI-Gun, And That's All It Is!

CAVman in WYoming

washington · November 16th, 2011, 11:37 AM

Locking up huge portions of land is unlawful. A large percentage of the land in western states is under federal control. The constitution contains no authorization for federal land control.
However, the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO does.
-" Abolition of property and land, and application of all rents of land to public purposes"
Most if not all of the Communist Manifesto is active in this country.
-Land Control
-Progressive Income tax
-Termination of the rights of inheritance
-Government control of education
-Central bank
You know the rest...starting to see the picture?

CAVman · November 16th, 2011, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by washington

Locking up huge portions of land is unlawful. A large percentage of the land in western states is under federal control. The constitution contains no authorization for federal land control.
However, the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO does.
-" Abolition of property and land, and application of all rents of land to public purposes"
Most if not all of the Communist Manifesto is active in this country.
-Land Control
-Progressive Income tax
-Termination of the rights of inheritance
-Government control of education
-Central bank
You know the rest...starting to see the picture?

I ABSOLUTELY SEE THE PICTURE! And YOU Are In It!

As I Said Above---

"I Don't Think We Should Just P(i)ss and Moan About This---And WAIT For The 'Revolution'!"

Clearly YOU Do...
Thanks For Completely Clairifying That For Everybody Who Might Not Have Seen It Before..

I Knew WE Couldn't Count On YOU...No Surprise There In The Slightest...

So...Please Go Back To Posting YouTube Videos About 'Pyramids' And Let The Rest Of Move Ahead With This!!

CAVman in WYoming

Whatsinaname181 · November 16th, 2011, 11:53 AM

If that freak gets one more term in, say goodbye.

RAMMAC · November 16th, 2011, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrbe

I hate to say it, but shooters share some of the responsibility for these attitudes. Too many don't respect the land and leave their trash everywhere, destroy trees, don't follow BLM shooting rules, etc. Many BLM ranges have been closed here in Colorado due to irresponsible shooting. Shame.

Sorry, but I get a little tired of hearing how those whose rights are going to be taken away have to accept the blame for loosing their rights. Taking my gun rights away because there is garbage in the area is ridiculous.

The truth is that it's not firearms enthusiasts that trash the environment, it's lazy, self centered, narcissistic PEOPLE that trash the environment, regardless of whether they use firearms or not. The places that you refer to as being trashed by shooters are used by more than just shooters, my guess is that in your experience the places where you shoot are really just unofficial garbage dumps. If all the garbage you refer to was left only by shooters then all firearms ranges would look like garbage dumps.

Look at any public gathering and you will see nothing but trash and damage to property after the people leave. Firearms enthusiasts that meekly accept the blame for people abusing the environment just helps the anti-gunners create an atmosphere where it's acceptable to take our rights away.