M14 Forum

Jason0839 · June 25th, 2011, 12:08 PM

Hey guys I should apologize I do not mean to be so confrontational, I love my SAW and as long as you replace the seer and ejector when there are signs of failure than its a great weapon that has enabled me to continue to breathe :)

Jeremy2171 · June 25th, 2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAMMAC

There might be an advantage in so far as maintainability, the M27 seems like a simpler weapon with less number of parts and less complex of an operating system. I've always liked the idea of the SAW but I was never impressed with their reliability, especially compared to the 240. The last time I saw a machine gun platoon train (back in the mid 1990s) I was amazed at how fast the SAWs fell out of their "talking guns" pattern of fire. Within minutes the 240Gs were the only guns firing.

The biggest problem with the M249 is the Armorer who is supposed to "maintain" these weapons. From day 1 at SOI/MCT Marines are told M249s are "junk" and it gets ingrained into their heads....

The "reality" of it is "most" of the grunt unit SAWs are in dire need of maintenance. Mostly due to the fact the Armorer is clueless on preventative maintenance and proper inspection procedures......for that matter ALL Grunt weapons are in need of severe attention to detail when it comes to inspections. Unfortunately the (vast majority of) Armorers AND their SNCO'S (YES I SAID IT!) are "clueless" on how to get the Grunt weapons "properly" inspected and operating 100%. Most of them sit in their bays playing cards or texting instead of having their hands on ALL the weapons....most armorers don't even bother to make an effort to go to live fires "unless" a Co Gunny is smart enough to ask for one. Then when they show up...due to lack of proper training all they can usually do is say "yes its broken..tell the armorer when you get back" instead of fixing the weapons on the spot.

As for reliability the M249 is nothing more than an AK with beltfeed....from the oprod/piston to bolt design and extractor and even the semi-fixed ejector mimics the fixed on on the AK. The US has been using an AK design since the mid'80s when they adopted it......

Sorry for the long post but it really gets under my skin when I see/hear about weapons not working and it's the "weapons" fault.....sad truth is the Armorers are not properly LED and INSTRUCTED on how to perform their job!!

Rant off...gonna go take a nap....! :D

Jeremy2171 · June 25th, 2011, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason0839

Hey guys I should apologize I do not mean to be so confrontational, I love my SAW and as long as you replace the seer and ejector when there are signs of failure than its a great weapon that has enabled me to continue to breathe :)

The sear isn't the problem...it's the ejector as you stated AND the extractor....

Take your thumb and if you can wiggle the extractor easily it's time to get a new one. The extractor IS required to be replaced as a set which includes the extractor, spring, pin and retaining pin. ALL 4 WILL be replaced at the same time!

Next important is the gas cylinder and piston...keep them free of carbon so they can get a proper seal otherwise you will get gas leakage and suffer short stroking.

Those are the main points that are almost ALWAYS overlooked and never repaired and they are the KEY to keeping one running...

if you have any trouble with them just let me know.... "I can fix it!"

GARRARD · June 25th, 2011, 12:45 PM

Just my own experience as a third echelon maintainer, SAW's most frequently need retaining clips/springs of all sorts, bipods, and carrying handles to be repaired/replaced. After more than half a dozen MWO's, most of the other problems have been solved. The receiver being spot welded instead of riveted sometimes causes deformation that leads to condemnation. I wouldn't rate M249's as robust as their bigger brother the M240 but I would agree with Jeremy2171 that much of their bad reputation was more attributable to poor maintenance than poor design.

CPTKILLER · June 25th, 2011, 01:16 PM

I've heard a variety of comments about the SAW, a lot of users don't like them from a reliability perspective. The M240 is a whole different animal. It isn't a 5.56, it is a 7.62. In Armor the the M240 is a game changer against troops. The 240 is accurate & reliable.

My experience in SE Asia is not the sandbox. This is a case to listen to the troops in the current theaters. If I were their, the M1A would be something that would have gotten my attemtion, especially the M1A SOCOM 16.

Once again as we all know about opions.....

RAMMAC · June 25th, 2011, 02:05 PM

And I'm not banging on the SAW, if ya' gotta' hump a supressive fire weapon I vote for the SAW, and ya' always gotta' hump some kind of supressive fire weapon.

Jason, I'm one of the old guys that entered the Corps in the mid 1970's so to me it's always a bean counter problem because it always comes down to some civilian turd that thinks they are on a mission to save a few pennies (or make a few for themselves), they put a premium on cash, not Marine's lives.

And most general officers aren't much better (Airwing Amos isn't of much help in this debate). Some things never change, and I truly believe that, just like during Viet Nam, they want high body counts so that they can impress the politicians. And some silver tonged devil from HK (or one of their lobbyists) convinced Commandant Amos that the accuracy of the rifle will overcome the lack of supressive fire.

I understand the theoretical value and capability of the M27 but I would bet that the tactical reality is far different.

Jason0839 · June 26th, 2011, 04:55 AM

All comments are correct, my first stop in theater was always Al Alasad to get the SAWs maintained. Keep them well fed and dry and they will be your friend. Never had an issue with my SAWs.

redlegagent · June 26th, 2011, 04:57 AM

From what I see, the M-27 is essentially just a heavy barreled rifle. It still has the 16" barrel which, as pointed out, is not removable. I do not feel it is an "equitable" trade-off with a SAW. Perhaps they should consider simply retro-fitting all the M-4A1s with the new upper so everyone can have extended range capability in addition to the reliable HK piston system and leave the SAW alone for suppressive fire capability.

Jeremy2171 · June 26th, 2011, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason0839

All comments are correct, my first stop in theater was always Al Alasad to get the SAWs maintained. Keep them well fed and dry and they will be your friend. Never had an issue with my SAWs.

I had 2d Marines (RCT-2) Armory on Ripper from 06-08..you didn't stop by for a visit did you??

Jason0839 · June 26th, 2011, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy2171

I had 2d Marines (RCT-2) Armory on Ripper from 06-08..you didn't stop by for a visit did you??

Me and my boys were definitely there, loved your little defac that no one knew about!

First time with a MiTT and the second time with 2nd Bravo. Did fine work on my SAWs, your Marines or yourself for that matter showed me about pushing up on the extractor with my thumb.

Jeremy2171 · June 26th, 2011, 03:32 PM

Small world... ain't it??

Jason0839 · June 26th, 2011, 03:39 PM

It truly is.

cowpoke · July 24th, 2011, 12:31 PM

I've never been around anything but the SAW fire team-wise but when 1/3 relieved my unit in Afghan in April they didn't have a single SAW. Just those IARs. I think they may have had a couple SAWs in the company armory they said. They were surprised to see us carrying them still

Everything I've seen from the IAR looks like it's money.