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True M14 bayonet with Kabar blade

This is a discussion on True M14 bayonet with Kabar blade within the Edged Weapons forums, part of the Gun Forum category; Interesting, the Army experiments with a Ka-bar bladed M-7 bayonet back in 1977 and finds it unacceptable because it's not durable enough. Nine years pass ...


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Old March 3rd, 2016, 12:24 AM   #16
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Interesting, the Army experiments with a Ka-bar bladed M-7 bayonet back in 1977 and finds it unacceptable because it's not durable enough. Nine years pass (1986) and Phobis III designs and manufactures the new M-9 knife/bayonet that incorparates a Ka-bar style blade along with other features. Then in 2003 the USMC fields the new and improved Ontario OKC-3S knife/bayonet that again uses a Ka-bar styles blade. The fact that Ontario is a major supplier (along with Ka-bar) of in-specification Ka-bar USMC Combat Knives doesn't hurt. Guess they corrected the durability problems. Of course, since they both cost $100+, so they better be darn good bayonets!

As for the posers selling fake USGI M-6/-7/-9/OKC-3S knives, buyer beware. Many cheap, unreliable and crappy bayonets are being sold to gullible buyers that want a "tacti-kool" blade for their rifles. There's even a "genuine USGI" Tanto bladed M-9 styled bayonet on the market for the special reduced price of $29.95 and guaranteed to break the first time used. BTW, "Made in China".

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Old March 3rd, 2016, 03:18 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1sniper View Post
Coles book "Best of US Military knives" shows an M7 experimental bayo but deemed "unsuitable", are you sure the one you saw was M6??
I know replicas of these M7s showed up at gun shows back in the early 80s along with "knuckle" knives with M7 blades.
It had the forward latch just like every other M14 bayonet has. YES, I am absolutely sure it was for the M14, regardless of whatever M number you call it. I am not a collector so using M numbers is Greek to me. I prefer to call them by the rifle they go to. I am a squid after all, not a gravel agitator.

This pic does not have the forward latch at all. I don't see how the one in this pic would ever fit on an M14.


Last edited by RetiredNSmilin308; March 3rd, 2016 at 03:41 AM.
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Old March 3rd, 2016, 03:28 AM   #18
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The bayonet in the case has all the right furniture for an M14 bayonet, and the scales were black plastic, and it had the forward latch. That to me is the main identifying feature for am M14 bayonet.

I am guessing, only because of his really high prices on everything else, that this is some kind of fake....but I am not sure, and thought it rude to ask to take a pic of it.

The sky high prices are always a good indicator or a rip off, however he would not take $200 for the piece, so maybe that is what he paid for it, and is trying to pass the scam onto someone else.

I know the $595 he wanted for a Model 12 was about double what I had seen around town.

Still, the answers so far, have not discussed M14 bayonets, only others.

I am not a collector, so I do not know what M number the M14 bayonet was called, but I DO KNOW it has a forward latch and plastic scales. This one I saw has both AND a Kabar blade.

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Old March 3rd, 2016, 04:05 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredNSmilin308 View Post
The bayonet in the case has all the right furniture for an M14 bayonet, and the scales were black plastic, and it had the forward latch. That to me is the main identifying feature for am M14 bayonet.

I am guessing, only because of his really high prices on everything else, that this is some kind of fake....but I am not sure, and thought it rude to ask to take a pic of it.

The sky high prices are always a good indicator or a rip off, however he would not take $200 for the piece, so maybe that is what he paid for it, and is trying to pass the scam onto someone else.

I know the $595 he wanted for a Model 12 was about double what I had seen around town.

Still, the answers so far, have not discussed M14 bayonets, only others.

I am not a collector, so I do not know what M number the M14 bayonet was called, but I DO KNOW it has a forward latch and plastic scales. This one I saw has both AND a Kabar blade.
Not that it makes a difference as you are trying to determine the originality of the one you saw, I understand that, just for the record,the one in Coles has a rear locking mechanism like the M4 (M1 carbine bayo).
Wish I could be more help but there is nothing in Coles about an M14 bayo with that type blade. I'm not a knife collector either,did go thru a spell when I was deep into M3 trench knives tho.

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Old March 3rd, 2016, 04:24 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by m1sniper View Post
Not that it makes a difference as you are trying to determine the originality of the one you saw, I understand that, just for the record,the one in Coles has a rear locking mechanism like the M4 (M1 carbine bayo).
Wish I could be more help but there is nothing in Coles about an M14 bayo with that type blade. I'm not a knife collector either,did go thru a spell when I was deep into M3 trench knives tho.
Exactly...simply due to the lack of info on this thing I saw makes me doubt it is real.

The internet came up with Zilch, and my Bayonets coffee table book does not say much either.

I wonder if I bought it for his $250 asking price, then took it home and popped off the scales, I would see a weld line just beneath the scales where a Kabar blade was welded onto an M6 body and the whole thing reparkerized.

I think that is a test I prefer to not try.

At least now I am straight on the M numbers. You grunts have a language all your own.

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Old March 3rd, 2016, 04:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyson View Post
Conetta made some experimental bayonets with KABAR blades. Sometimes found on EBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-CONETTA-E...QAAOSwnDxUkwNy

SARCO also had some made up from parts, years ago. Not GI tho.

edit: I don't remember if the SARCO humped bayonets were M6 or M7 style. It has been a longtime since I saw one.
The linked bayonet is for an M16, anyway....

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Old March 3rd, 2016, 05:26 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredNSmilin308 View Post
Exactly...simply due to the lack of info on this thing I saw makes me doubt it is real.

The internet came up with Zilch, and my Bayonets coffee table book does not say much either.

I wonder if I bought it for his $250 asking price, then took it home and popped off the scales, I would see a weld line just beneath the scales where a Kabar blade was welded onto an M6 body and the whole thing reparkerized.

I think that is a test I prefer to not try.

At least now I am straight on the M numbers. You grunts have a language all your own.
Ask to see the tang with the grip scales off? If he refuses, you know something is up, if he actually thinks it is real, you will both know for sure....

The tangs of the M6 and the tangs of Ontario and K-Bar "k-bars" are about 3/4 inch wide, the difference being the notches and cuts need to fit the latch mechanism. If someone when to the trouble of doing the conversion right, they could re-profile the tang, and drill some holes, and pull some hardware off a Greek contract M5 and make something that looks right on the outside, and actually works right on the inside.

However, with the scales off, you should see the evidence of the hardware coming off the donor (buggered rivet holes, hand done rivets, etc), hand filing on the edges, and such...

(I doubt anyone would bother to use a mill to make the adjustments...)

Edit to add-

M1905, M1942, = M1 Garand bayonets, 16 inch blade
M1, M1905E1 = M1 Garand, 10 inch blade
[M2 = Switch Blade]
[M3 = Fighting knife]
M4 = M1 Carbine, 6-3/4 inch blade
M5, M5A1 = M1 Garand, 6-3/4 inch blade
M6 = M14, 6-3/4 inch blade
M7 = M16/M4, 6-3/4 blade
[M8 = scabbard for the M3 through M7]
M9 = M16/M4, 7 inch blade
OKC3S = M16/M4, 8 inch blade

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Last edited by lysander; March 3rd, 2016 at 05:45 AM.
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Old March 3rd, 2016, 10:34 AM   #23
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Trying to get back on track for the OP, I'd say that your initial impression is most probably right. It's hard to impossible to prove a negative. That being said I'll repeat that I've never before heard of a bayonet made to fit the M14 with a KA-BAR type blade. Even for just the purpose of test evaluation.
Yes my curiosity would love to see images of said bayonet, but I understand your position on the subject.
If for some reason you would like to see images that might help. I could provide some, but if that's not a concern I'll save the time.

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Old March 3rd, 2016, 11:13 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lysander View Post
Ask to see the tang with the grip scales off? If he refuses, you know something is up, if he actually thinks it is real, you will both know for sure....

The tangs of the M6 and the tangs of Ontario and K-Bar "k-bars" are about 3/4 inch wide, the difference being the notches and cuts need to fit the latch mechanism. If someone when to the trouble of doing the conversion right, they could re-profile the tang, and drill some holes, and pull some hardware off a Greek contract M5 and make something that looks right on the outside, and actually works right on the inside.

However, with the scales off, you should see the evidence of the hardware coming off the donor (buggered rivet holes, hand done rivets, etc), hand filing on the edges, and such...

(I doubt anyone would bother to use a mill to make the adjustments...)

Edit to add-

M1905, M1942, = M1 Garand bayonets, 16 inch blade
M1, M1905E1 = M1 Garand, 10 inch blade
[M2 = Switch Blade]
[M3 = Fighting knife]
M4 = M1 Carbine, 6-3/4 inch blade
M5, M5A1 = M1 Garand, 6-3/4 inch blade
M6 = M14, 6-3/4 inch blade
M7 = M16/M4, 6-3/4 blade
[M8 = scabbard for the M3 through M7]
M9 = M16/M4, 7 inch blade
OKC3S = M16/M4, 8 inch blade
Thanks for the info. I will do a C&P in a Word document. US squids need all the help with grunt stuff we can get.

Now if you ever get stuck with AN designations on equipment, I am your guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sac troop View Post
Trying to get back on track for the OP, I'd say that your initial impression is most probably right. It's hard to impossible to prove a negative. That being said I'll repeat that I've never before heard of a bayonet made to fit the M14 with a KA-BAR type blade. Even for just the purpose of test evaluation.
Yes my curiosity would love to see images of said bayonet, but I understand your position on the subject.
If for some reason you would like to see images that might help. I could provide some, but if that's not a concern I'll save the time.
Thank you, I do not think I will ever go back to that high priced shop. Him charging almost double for that shotgun makes me want to never darken his door again.

However, if you DO have any pics of what I have seen, I would like to see them. The furniture was definitely an M6, and it had a parkerized Kabar blade on it. If you have a pic of even some fake ones, that would be nice.

As mentioned before, I could see with a little creativity, how someone could make one. I am sure collectors of anything have to deal with that issue all the time.

PS...I think the modern OKC3S is probably the nicest bayonet / knife of any ever made in the US arsenal. I have one on the wall in the man cave and another between the box springs & mattress.

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Old March 4th, 2016, 01:26 AM   #25
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I feel the same about the OKC3S.

Iím approaching this from the assumption that the bayonet is a fantasy piece. For the purpose of this post Iím showing pictures of bayonets that fit on M14 and M1 Garands, because these two bayonets use basically the same attachment mechanisms. Included are both Government contract pieces that comply with the written specifications and commercial knock offs to show the type of parts and processes they employ.

For reference is a picture of some Government contract M14 bayonets and two of the knife-fighting, (i.e. KA-BARís). The M3 trench knife is there because I didnít feel like editing the picture.



the current drawings for the knife-fighting



Close up of the insides of a Government M14 bayonet and a commercial M1 Garand bayonet.



Like lysander said earlier you can see that some drilling and filing would have to take place on the KA-BAR tang to fit the pieces of the bayonet latching to it.
It's likely that the special tooling wasn't available to put it together just the same way and some expedient things would likely be employed.

For the M14 bayonet there is a tab of metal left on the tang when the blade blank is stamped to create a recoil stop.



there isn't enough metal available on the KA-BAR tang to make this stop. So it would either be missing or something else would be done to allow for it.



On the German commercial bayonet you can see how the single tail piece creates a recoil stop across the top of the tang.



On this Asian made copy they just used a tack weld.

The recoil stop can be examined without taking the grips off the bayonet. If you have the advantage of seeing underneath the grips it's likely that the guard would be found tack welded to the tang.

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Old March 4th, 2016, 02:30 AM   #26
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My guess is its a M1905 or M1942 or M1 bayonet someone ground down.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/foru...e-conversions/

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Old March 4th, 2016, 10:15 AM   #27
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Those are worth consideration. The muzzle ring would just need to be replaced with one that was large enough.

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Old March 6th, 2016, 01:45 PM   #28
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Either way, it's pretty major surgery....

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Old March 7th, 2016, 07:49 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNelson View Post
My guess is its a M1905 or M1942 or M1 bayonet someone ground down.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/foru...e-conversions/
Those were fascinating pictures. Also thank you for introducing me to yet another historical site.

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