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February 8th, 2012, 06:35 AM
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#31 | | Platoon Commander
Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 495
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Its like a foul in a soccer game. If the referee blows the whistle its a foul. If the grand jury tells you it is looting, then it was looting.
Wolf
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February 8th, 2012, 06:39 AM
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#32 | | Platoon Commander
Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: USofA
Posts: 543
| Quote:
Originally Posted by geeck  If you have a arm load of widescreen TV's, Air Jordans, and cases of Colt 45 (the malt liqueur) you're probably looting. If you have a arm load of bread and water you're probably scavenging. At least that was my take during hurricane Katrina... | Hence the coining of the phrase "the hurricane Katrina workout"
This entailed running in 60mph winds while wading through 2 feet of water with a 60 inch TV over your head.
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February 8th, 2012, 07:12 AM
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#33 | | Designated Marksman
Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: (the once and future) Vermont Republic
Posts: 583
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Originally Posted by bigbang Its like a foul in a soccer game. If the referee blows the whistle its a foul. If the grand jury tells you it is looting, then it was looting.
Wolf | Then I guess it's important to ensure that the grand jury is solidly composed of your people.
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February 8th, 2012, 07:37 AM
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#34 | | Master Gunner
Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Bucks County, PA. USA
Posts: 856
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Greetings,
Some of the Katrina scenarios are what got me thinking on this and trying to find my "line". I concur with Geeck about the TVs, etc.. I don't think it's quite as clear cut regarding the bread and water though. To me, it certainly seems "defensible", but perhaps not 100% moral. Some variations on the theme: if I was to take bread and water from a small shop, but leave an IOU; if I was to be the first one to smash the window to get them, if it was a Walmart or other big corp owned place and/or the glass was already breached?
There are other sides to all of these examples. The shop owner may have been counting on the goods being there for his family the next day; my IOU wouldn't help them much at that point. I really don't differentiate between a small store and a large corp, but perhaps some do. I'm having a hard time really defining this in an absolute sense. Even HHs example of the dead car on the side of the road. Who is to say that the owner wasn't on his way back with some gas to get it going? Now when he gets there and finds the battery missing, was it still scavenging?
Honestly, I don't know what *I* would do if my survival was contingent on the mobility of this line. I would hope to do the "right" thing, just not sure exactly what that is within the extreme surroundings. Quote:
Originally Posted by geeck If you have a arm load of widescreen TV's, Air Jordans, and cases of Colt 45 (the malt liqueur) you're probably looting. If you have a arm load of bread and water you're probably scavenging. At least that was my take during hurricane Katrina... | *edit to add* PS...........Geeck, I was not picking on your point, just using it as an example.
Regards, Jim
Last edited by jim-analog; February 8th, 2012 at 07:41 AM.
Reason: add PS
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February 8th, 2012, 07:48 AM
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#35 | | Platoon Commander
Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: eastern Iowa
Posts: 473
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Scavenging = you're hungry
Looting = you aren't hungry yet
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February 8th, 2012, 08:13 AM
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#36 | | Scout Sniper
Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 822
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Originally Posted by huntinghawk If an item is abandoned you are scavenging. If owned you are looting. | I know you guys hate on California, but this issue came up with celebrities and "dumpster diving" some years ago.
-Is it legal to take from the trash of a celebrity? Including some personal information? COURT ANSWER: Yes, because the depositer has given up claim of the property and designated it as waste, which someone else may then use.
When I was a little kid, people used to dump old junk of all kinds in the "power lines" some ways from my house. I found a scooter once and we tried to get it running (failed). About 10 feet from that I found an old motorcycle and tried to push it home and I got jumped on by the fire department who said it belonged to one of their members. 10 feet can mean a big deal (I didn't get in trouble, but it made me cognizant of where stuff is).
Every single day I wake up where I live, I can hear people going through the dumpsters of the houses that line my street taking aluminum cans. They are almost certainly illegal aliens looking to get some survival $. We have 2 sets of trash bins. Recycling and trash. If you take from the recycling bin, you are stealing from the city/state/county (can't remember which) and you will get busted. That's THEIR recycling money. You take from the garbage, you're golden.
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February 8th, 2012, 08:28 AM
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#37 | | Old Salt
Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,456
| Quote:
Originally Posted by geeck If you have a arm load of widescreen TV's, Air Jordans, and cases of Colt 45 (the malt liqueur) you're probably looting. If you have a arm load of bread and water you're probably scavenging. At least that was my take during hurricane Katrina... | I have to agree, there might not be a legal difference but there certainly is a moral difference in my opinion.
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February 8th, 2012, 08:35 AM
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#38 | | Old Salt
Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,456
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution 1: You're arguing that it's OK to steal something belonging to another that they need to survive, possibly resulting in the death of that other, rather than to die with dignity having not caused the deaths of others. You're arguing that you come first and will do 'whatever it takes'- you and yours first, regardless of whether others get killed. This is a fundamentally amoral position.
2: In light of that open admission, is it immoral to kill you preemptively as a matter of self-defense, if we are to agree that self-defense against the aggression of others is a moral position? | While I would like to think that I would take the high road, in reality I don't think I could watch my wife and children slowly starve to death if I could help it. While it would certainly be my last resort, I can't say that I wouldn't steal if I had no other choices.
With that being said, part of the reason I prepare is so that hopefully I will never have to test my morals in a disaster situation. It is much easier to do the right thing on a full stomach.
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February 8th, 2012, 08:36 AM
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#39 | | Platoon Commander
Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wyomin!
Posts: 493
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February 8th, 2012, 08:43 AM
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#40 | | Platoon Commander
Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 495
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Recently a homeless man over here was charged of theft because he stole some food from the trashcan of a bakery. He was sentenced. Where you can see that moral standards have not necessarily something to do with laws. Maybe that just obeying the 10 commandments is a better base when nothing other helps.
Wolf
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February 8th, 2012, 09:06 AM
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#41 | | Platoon Commander
Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Lacey, WA
Posts: 423
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Some people tend to generalize the issue even compare it to games and ownership of wild animals. If some cant not figure out what is the meaning of scavenging or looting, then I ask you to look at WEBSTER's dictionary and go from there.
I think everyone here would do what it takes to survive. Even taking a life just so that they and their family can live.
You guys are funny.
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