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Acceptable accruracy.

This is a discussion on Acceptable accruracy. within the Art Luppino forums, part of the Gun Professionals category; Acceptable accuracy in a the M1A/M14 is personal. During my time and training, the Match M14's had to be capable of holding the 10 ring ...


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Old August 23rd, 2016, 07:46 AM   #1
Lifer
 
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Acceptable accruracy.

Acceptable accuracy in a the M1A/M14 is personal.

During my time and training, the Match M14's had to be capable of holding the 10 ring at 600 yards for 20 shots. The odd thing was, the rifles were accuracy tested at the 300 yd. line. The ammunition used was M118. A match rifle was one that was capable of "Cleaning the Course".

Competition shooting is loooooong past, it's bench rest now. My acceptable accuracy is, for a highly modified M1A, based on only five shots using iron sights is inside an inch, the occasional 10 shot groups, 1 and 1.2 inches.. Like Banbam, I've given up on scoped M1A's and Woman an Whisky.. Art L.

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 08:07 AM   #2
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Any rifle that outshoots me. Some days I think it doesn't even need to be a rifle and an old Brown Bess would qualify.

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 08:11 AM   #3
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Art, what about girls and beer?

80s SAI NM could outshoot me. With a scope off a rest it was < MOA

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 08:13 AM   #4
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My Loaded will keep 5 out of 5 on a man-sized silhouette at 300 yards from the prone using a sling. When push comes to shove - who needs more accuracy than that?

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 08:14 AM   #5
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Edited to add: With open sights

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 08:31 AM   #6
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Good enough for me: My Fed Ord M14SA using factory 168 GMM ammo shoots sub MOA single shot groups all day.

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 08:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by art luppino View Post
Competition shooting is loooooong past, it's bench rest now. My acceptable accuracy is, for a highly modified M1A, based on only five shots using iron sights is inside an inch, the occasional 10 shot groups, 1 and 1.2 inches.. Like Banbam, I've given up on scoped M1A's and Woman an Whisky.. Art L.
Your acceptable would be my tickled pink, or chartreuse, or... Whatever....

Having adjusted my expectations, in the context of all of the other great aspects of the m1a, if I can reliably hold 1.5" at 100 yds, with a scope, for reasonably priced factory ammo, less into the package than I paid for my used car, and still running with that happy to lucky reliability, given non-obsessive maintenance, I am pleased.

Of course, if modest expenditures, a bit of effort, learning, and play time can yield better, I can accept that too.

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 09:09 AM   #8
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Art,

What would you say is a reasonable standard of repeatable accuracy if optics are allowed into the equation? I'm talking a bedded match rifle, McMillan stock, rear lug with torque screw, and a good quality heavy barrel like Krieger etc.

I've been told I'm foolish to build an M25 type rifle when I could just get an AR10. Foolish maybe if you look at things purely in terms of cost, but I like the M14 and I continue to stubbornly resist in the belief that the AR10 isn't the automatic laser beam it is made out to be. Conversely I also believe with many of the advancements that have been made in bedding compounds the M14 isn't as "fussy" as some make it out to be. Your thoughts?

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 09:12 AM   #9
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Thumbs up Old eyes and chasing "Perfection"

After many years of shooting HP with an M1 and M14/M1A, I now find it acceptable to hit center body mass ( 12" paper plate ) on a man sized silhouette at 200 yards with my standard SA M14 w/iron sights , prone with sling.

If and when I do that I have a big ole grin on my mug.

My eyes are less than what they use to be 10 years ago.

I'm not so critical of myself now as I don't have the pressure of competitions to chase "perfection".

"Perfection" always seemed to be the guy two or three positions to my right or left.



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Old August 23rd, 2016, 09:37 AM   #10
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It took me a long, long time to even fathom that I could be at the limit of my rifle's accuracy with iron sights. It's been bone stock since the day it left the factory 19 years ago. If anything, it seemed to have gotten more accurate as the years went by, but I think I'm finally at the point where it's not me holding the rifle back now.

It's time to see what this rifle can really do. I'm a little surprised that as I get into the fundamentals of improving M14 accuracy, there is so much you can do with just glue and files, a polishing wheel and a shim or two, and very, very careful preparation.

I can see how some armorers and gunsmiths have the reputations they do. This stuff takes skills and experience to do well. I have very little of either... but you guys have plenty.

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 11:28 AM   #11
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Thank you responders

The above responses just about covers what can be said.. There one serious comment that makes the hair stand on end, "ALL DAY LONG". having heard that for over 60 years and have yet to see anybody do it. Just in ten hours at a shot per min. would be 600 rounds all under an inch.. "Panegyric at best"...Art L."

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 11:39 AM   #12
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Opitcs

Quote:
Originally Posted by trbon8r View Post
Art,

What would you say is a reasonable standard of repeatable accuracy if optics are allowed into the equation? I'm talking a bedded match rifle, McMillan stock, rear lug with torque screw, and a good quality heavy barrel like Krieger etc.

I've been told I'm foolish to build an M25 type rifle when I could just get an AR10. Foolish maybe if you look at things purely in terms of cost, but I like the M14 and I continue to stubbornly resist in the belief that the AR10 isn't the automatic laser beam it is made out to be. Conversely I also believe with many of the advancements that have been made in bedding compounds the M14 isn't as "fussy" as some make it out to be. Your thoughts?

Optics on the M1A are problematical, not the scope usually, but the Mounts.

The two mating surfaces stand little chance of offering a flush fit in my experience, which was lengthy... If you are losing your hair forget messing with scopes on the M1A's .. This was not an issue with scoped M14's however.. Art L.

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 12:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by art luppino View Post
The above responses just about covers what can be said.. There one serious comment that makes the hair stand on end, "ALL DAY LONG". having heard that for over 60 years and have yet to see anybody do it. Just in ten hours at a shot per min. would be 600 rounds all under an inch.. "Panegyric at best"...Art L."
I think the key to that statement was "one shot groups" I'm pretty sure I can throw rocks and get sub-MOA one shot groups.

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Old August 23rd, 2016, 01:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ripcord View Post
My Loaded will keep 5 out of 5 on a man-sized silhouette at 300 yards from the prone using a sling. When push comes to shove - who needs more accuracy than that?
I agree.
Where I live ....a shot over 150yrds is rare 300 yrds in other areas if I can 10 for 10 on a man size planker at 150, I'm good
The trick is if your target blows across the lane
.I injoy the carnival style shooting where your target moves across the lane..
We have a lot of varmints around here keeps you sharp.
Moving targets especially small targets are a challenge.

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Last edited by Gort lives; August 23rd, 2016 at 01:28 PM. Reason: clerification
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Old August 23rd, 2016, 02:08 PM   #15
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After having my eyeballs Lazered as a Y2K present for myself,
I can no longer shoot a rifle ACCURATELY with any aperture rear sight.
The dam front post actually WIGGLES.
IT MOCKS ME.!!!!

NOT GOOD!
SO,
now I use scopes on almost all my rifles, the bigger the better,

For my M14 rifle builds, I mount with the M14.CA CASM TOP mounts. With the many Commercial MXX receivers, the left SIDE of the receiver is often out of spec, which is why SO many attempts at getting a solId and durable connection to the mount ARE often problematic. The quality brand name mounts themselves are not usually the problem, it is getting them to fit properly to a receiver that may be out of spec, that is the main issue.

THE CASM MOUNTS DO NOT EVEN TOUCH THE LEFT SIDE OF THE RECEIVER, MOUNTING INSTEAD AT THE TOP, INTO THE REAR SIGHT POCKET, securely bolted between the sturdy rear sight ears with massive 1/4" bolts. The "top mount" design concept has certain theoretical advantages for the M14 rifles over all side mounts, but unfortunately it requires the removal of the excellent M14 iron sights.

IT SEEMS AS IF
I have gradually become more and more accurate with bench shooting M14 rifles, because I do a LOT of that. Every M14 type rifle that passes through my hands [ and I am at around 300 of these ] gets a thorough detail stripping, inspection, BASIC tightening and tweaking, usually a decent CRISP trigger job, and then off to the range to see how well it groups ... five shots at 100 yds, with various types of ammo. This is nothing special, just a basic RACK GRADE tune and tweak, ON ALL ORIGINAL PARTS, and most of these are CHINESE / FORGED clones, with all of their good and bad points.

Over the 30 or so years I have been shooting the M14 types, I am amazed at how the rifles seem to be getting more and more accurate.. I do not take much personal credit for this, instead crediting the better mounts, better scopes, and BETTER AMMO. And perhaps, because the Chinese seem to be getting better and better at getting the M14 parts, to fly well in close formation. The last handful of Chinese rifles I did up were all reliable, functional and safe, as they came in. This was not always the case, I have seen too many of the older Chinese M14 clones with badly fitted bolts, and trigger mechanism that were unsafe at any speed. But usually, these Chinese clones could be fixed with a small amount of labor, and a few GI parts.

Last time at the range, using the absolutely amazing 7.62 American Eagle 168 gr OTM ammunition, marked "For M1 A", I got fantastic groups. With the 18.6" factory SHORTY, the first three shots were a cloverleaf ... so I quit after that. Didn't want to spoil that winning streak. With the 22" standard, the five shot 100 yd group sizes hovered around 1" - 1.5". REMEMBER, this was with basically rack grade Chinese rifles, off a carpet padded block of wood for a front rest, and with a bit of material under the pistol grip, where I rested my trigger hand, as a rear rest. The only aftermarket parts were the CASM mounts, inexpensive UTG quick release rings, and various inexpensive Bushnell scopes.

Over and over again, I see rack grade, slightly tweaked M14 type rifles shooting 2" five shot 100 yd groups, with whatever ammo that individual rifle likes best. IMHO, Finding the MOST ACCURATE ammo is the most critical part to M14 'accurising". I have even seen several MOA and a few rare SUB-MOA 100 yd, five shot groups. And with the Blackfeather stock which uses the so called "free floated" barrel to forearm system, MOA has been more common than I used to achieve with standard stocks. But then my last Blackfeather build actually shot better in a standard stock than it did after I upgraded with the BF alloy chassis system. In fact, my last two M14 builds both are in standard stocks, and both shoot exceptional well, even though there is absolutely no FLEX in the forend/ferrule connection.

GO FIGGER??

SO,
BOTTOM LINE,

get a good trigger job,
spend some time with various types of ammo to find which ones your rifle likes best,
and SECURELY mount a big scope.

That is the winning formula that has worked for me, five shots at a time, time after time
[but definitely NOT "all day long"].

fact is,
with the medical issues that I have,
and given the Canuck five round magazine limitations,
shooting more than five rounds at a time is a moot point for me.

as always,
YPMMV
LAZ 1

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