 3Thanks
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July 11th, 2011, 10:31 PM
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#16 | | Snappin In
Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Merca'
Posts: 16
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Originally Posted by GARRARD  I don't care for M4's but I wasn't getting enough practice with the Army so I ended up buying an AR. The Army spends tons of money on Engagement Skill Trainers, beam hits, and all this other stuff instead of just buying ammo and getting soldiers to the range. I think the shooting doctrine is sound, it's just a matter of actually practicing it. | EST is a little dumb and doesn't replace shooting a the range but I think it does have a place. That place is in Basin training(the only place I have used it. We have one at Bragg but I have never been) It helps explain things like trigger squeeze to some of the slower kids that have never shot a rifle in their life and actually shows if they are doing it or not. Obviously doesn't replace Dime drills. Didn't do much for me but didn't hurt either.
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July 12th, 2011, 01:13 PM
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#17 | | Squad Leader
Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Orygun
Posts: 263
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Originally Posted by Swamp Rat When I was a grunt in the 90's/01, Part of our field ops was unknown distance pop-ups. Shooting for "props" aka beers. Now that has gone to only the KD course that all Marines have to do, and the standards have declined. Marines joke and laugh and work to qual in the pizza box score and some go UNQ like it's no big deal. I felt before I left that the "Every Marine a Rifleman" is a lie, which it is, and uttered by those who hide on the drill field or work at IPAC f-ing up paperwork. |
I've never worked with a marine who thought that an UNQ was "no big deal" or was happy about getting a pizza box but you're right about "every marine a rifleman" being a lie. The Marine Corps is not willing to invest the required ammo and training time to make every marine a legitimate rifleman. Doing the table 1 and table 2 courses once a year doesn't cut it either.
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July 28th, 2011, 05:37 PM
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#18 | | Fire Team Leader
Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Roswell, NM
Posts: 178
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Originally Posted by 1911Ron Appleseed has trained at least 2 if not 3 National Guard units prior to them shipping out,stuff that the Army is not spending time to do, sad really. | It's been 2 NG forward deploying units and one active Army unit with great reviews/response from the troops. Not so much from the brass cause we want them for 5 days and they don't want to spend the $$$ on 600-800 rounds per person....O.L.
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July 28th, 2011, 06:25 PM
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#19 | | Old Salt
Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Texas
Posts: 1,515
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All my guys can shoot, youd better believe that. I give the USMC their due, and I try and impliment this into my training. From dry-fire to live fire, as well as a basic understanding of ballistics and how to apply this to shooting 300 meters and beyond.
"Privates, whats the most deadly weapon on the battlefield?".... they had better repeat to me, "A WELL TRAINED RIFLEMAN, DRILL SERGEANT!"
The Army will catch up one day... if I have anything to say about it. :D
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July 28th, 2011, 07:39 PM
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#20 | | Old Salt
Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Coastal NC
Posts: 1,861
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Originally Posted by CE1371 I've never worked with a marine who thought that an UNQ was "no big deal" or was happy about getting a pizza box but you're right about "every marine a rifleman" being a lie. The Marine Corps is not willing to invest the required ammo and training time to make every marine a legitimate rifleman. Doing the table 1 and table 2 courses once a year doesn't cut it either. | Witnessed many times on the range. It was disgusting and I about lost my mind when the POGs were smearing cami paint on their mugs during the field fire portion.
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July 28th, 2011, 07:44 PM
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#21 | | Old Salt
Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Coastal NC
Posts: 1,861
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Originally Posted by Jason0839 I was on this part of the forum to bring to attention a new Army ad I saw that featured one of the new awarded MOH heroes, when this post caught my eye. As Im a Marine I do not come here much, but the article caught my eye.
1. To call the Drill Field a place to hide is a joke and an insult to those Marines. Drill Instructors work over 120hrs a week. I know this as Im a Series Commander and I am always with them.
2. Ive been to a many Table 1 ranges, ie KD and have never witnesses anyone laughing and joking about just trying to get a pizza box. Thats too close to unq, a unq equals below avg pro/con marks or an adverse fitrep.
3. With the hi op tempo every Marine is a rifle man, and a post like yours does this generation of Marines a dis-service.
4. For you Army guys, there are profesionals out there and tons of 1stSgt's who remember the old days, good training will come again, just need to wait out this current need for a crap ton of soldiers due to op tempo. | I've been to many a range qual myself and witnessed many POGs having a good time doing exactly what I described. I'm being honest with my observations so if it bothers you, feel free to PM me so I can throw out more info. And I'm doing no dis-service to the current generation of grunts, and others who go down range, while Admin and other types, and those who are hiding in b-billets for the past 10 years, continue to flood the Marine Corps.
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July 28th, 2011, 08:22 PM
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#22 | | Snappin In
Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Bowling Green, Ky
Posts: 38
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Originally Posted by Swamp Rat When I was a grunt in the 90's/01, Part of our field ops was unknown distance pop-ups. Shooting for "props" aka beers. Now that has gone to only the KD course that all Marines have to do, and the standards have declined. Marines joke and laugh and work to qual in the pizza box score and some go UNQ like it's no big deal. I felt before I left that the "Every Marine a Rifleman" is a lie, which it is, and uttered by those who hide on the drill field or work at IPAC f-ing up paperwork. | I can't say this is true for all the Corps but I was in from 04-10 and we had a known and a unknown with pops and movers and if you UNQ you shot til you didn't or they put your papers in.. So not all units are gacking it off and I was a reservist..  but Ill agree are rounds shot per year was pretty sad.. luckly I was always a active shooter and hunter though so experts were to hard I do agree with more Marines accepting pizza box it's sad but considering most the guys lived in a metro city even a pizza box is pretty impressive for 100 rounds a year
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July 28th, 2011, 11:08 PM
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#23 | | Squad Leader
Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Orygun
Posts: 263
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Originally Posted by Swamp Rat And I'm doing no dis-service to the current generation of grunts, and others who go down range, while Admin and other types, and those who are hiding in b-billets for the past 10 years, continue to flood the Marine Corps. | I hear you on that. The infantry, tankers, artillery, combat engineers, corpsmen, and others who are in combat arms units take this stuff much more seriously. I had to work with two desk jockey staff NCOs from other MOSs who had never deployed before and did their b-billet hiding for most of their career (and "their career" is all they cared about). They were a mess and didn't know their hand from their ass out in the field. Eventually, it got to the point that the CO had to find ways to keep them back on the FOB so that they could piddle around instead of putting our unit in harms way due to shear negligence.
It's too bad we can't keep the Corps exclusive to combat arms and have the Navy do the rest.
All that being said, everyone knows that the average Marine could outshoot the average Joe any day of the week. That will never change until the Army is willing to hold its own to a higher standard across the board.
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August 2nd, 2011, 11:47 PM
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#24 | | Designated Marksman
Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cleman Barracks, Dept. of The Columbia.
Posts: 616
| Why “Joe” can’t shoot... :-(
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Originally Posted by CE1371 everyone knows that the average Marine could outshoot the average Joe any day of the week. That will never change until the Army is willing to hold its own to a higher standard across the board. | That’s a most Afirm and a Big Rog-Oh. The Army will always be playing a far back second string to the USMC. Some would say, “Hey for being retired Army you are really down on the Army???”... Well, a sad case is a sad case no matter what. For example, over the last two weeks at work I had the opportunity to observe two different SF ODAs doing “sniper training”. Yeah well okay whatever… On both occasions they had a plethora of M110s and M24s. No data books were to be seen anywhere and pretty much any steel or Caswell target beyond 400meters was pretty safe.
Not to mention their firearms handling and safety etiquette was in need of much improvement.
The sad fact of the Army is and always has been Leadership involvement/knowledge on the part of the “O” Corps.. And since shooting/marksmanship knowledge is totally performance oriented, the “O” Corps is sadly absent. The USMC is the only branch of service that has any validity with me anymore. The Army is full of career Soldiers somewhat, But professional Army Marksman are very far and few between.. As one of my fellow U.S. Army Distinguished Rifleman once said a while back when assisting a unit in pre-deployment training before heading to A-stan.. The Army teaches people to shoot, but it doesn’t teach then “How to Shoot”. More later after the SABOT rounds have impacted in my AO here….
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