M14 Forum

GARRARD · December 4th, 2011, 09:32 PM

Bearded rabbi can serve as Reserve chaplain

Quote:

By Joe Gould

The Army agreed to allow a bearded rabbi to become a chaplain as part of a settlement deal reached late last month in a federal discrimination lawsuit.

Rabbi Menachem Stern was appointed to the Reserve as a first lieutenant Nov. 28 under the agreement, which states he may “wear his unshorn beard in a neat and orderly manner while serving in the Army.” The agreement, filed in a Washington, D.C., federal court Nov. 22, stems from Stern’s allegations that the service has unfairly waived its “no-beard” regulations for several Sikhs and Muslims, but not for him.

Under the agreement, Stern will receive “temporary and assignment specific” exception to Army grooming regulations, meaning he may be ordered to shave if a military need arises.

Stern, 30-year-old adherent of the ultraorthodox Chabad Lubavitch sect, said he was looking forward to being sworn into the Reserve at a ceremony Dec. 9 in Florida.

“Me, my wife and my family are very excited, and look forward to embarking on this new mission,” he said. “We are very happy to be a part of the military.” Stern is petitioning the Army for an active-duty slot after he completes the Chaplain Basic Officer Leadership Course.

Stern’s attorney, Nathan Lewin, said the government settled to avert the risk of a broad judicial decision that could have entitled any soldier to wear a beard on religious grounds.

The Army will continue to consider exceptions to its grooming policies, as it always has, said Army spokesman Hank Minitrez, and “determine accomodation n an individual basis.” “The Army will maintain its standards of conformity for military necessity,” he said.

Nevertheless, Stern’s supporters said they see the settlement as a signal the Army will grant more exceptions for religiously mandated beards.

“Even though it is technically for this particular case, it will be hard for them to distinguish any future rabbi who applies,” Lewin said.

Stern’s endorsing agency and backer in the lawsuit, the Aleph Institute, plans to help more Chabad Lubavitch rabbis to join the Army and minister to historically underserved Jewish soldiers. “I cannot see the Army turning them down given the fact they’ve accepted Stern,” said Rabbi Sanford Dresin, the Aleph Institute’s director of military programs.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Harry Roback argued Army grooming standards, which require soldiers be clean-shaven, promote discipline, obedience and safety, as facial hair interferes with the use of gas masks.

Also, a beard might place a soldier “at a higher risk for attack” and threaten those serving alongside him.

Roback argued that the Army since 2009 has provided only temporary and assignment-specific exceptions for three Sikhs and two Muslims, which it can rescind if necessary, and not the permanent exception Stern initially sought.

“The rights of Army personnel, however, are not coextensive with the constitutional liberties enjoyed by civilians and may not prevail when military necessity requires otherwise,” the government said in a motion to dismiss the case.

Stern, a naturalized American born in Israel, said his beard, while possibly jarring for some soldiers, will prove an asset. “At the end of the day, someone who stands up for his beliefs is inspirational,” he said.

Phinehas · December 4th, 2011, 09:53 PM

Garrard my friend,

What's the big deal, after all, they are the ch

sen you know, and with that status, they should be allowed to do what ever they please, including having duel citizenship. Sounds absolutely constitutional to me.

GARRARD · December 5th, 2011, 08:25 AM

My problem is with their appearance not with their faith. This started with two Sikhs getting an exemption to wear beards and turbans. Now this. When I joined the Army, the drill sergeants would say "my way or the highway" but now it seems like appeasing cry babies is more important than standards. If you don't want to be a soldier then get lost, don't take our standard and shit all over it just so you can feel "special."

NukMed · December 5th, 2011, 08:57 AM

So what happens if they are gassed? Will a pro-mask fit?

Whatsinaname181 · December 5th, 2011, 09:13 AM

you wanna practice judaism? fine. you wanna be sikh? cool, no prob- BUT youre going to wear what everyone else wears. i dont give a damn what the british army did in india in the late 1800's. youre going to play by army rules, like everyone else dammit. Not "fair"? Join the damn peace corps then.

btw, its ok that youre fat, cant pass an APFT and suck at your job, PVT. were going to let you in anyway. and while youre in, go ahead and cry, whine and complain because some armchair commandos are up top making rules to further pamper you and tie our hands.

Hell yes. Drill Sergeant has no power anymore. HELL, the NCO has no power anymore- then the retards who are now managing the army complain about a lack of this or that, then its more death by powerpoint and implimentation of new stupid rules and the cycle repeats itself. I love making recommendations to remove a soldier from the army and i have to rewrite the geneva convention just to get it done. so much red tape, so much bs. most of the time, the soldier is just recycled and the process again, repeats itself. all about numbers, not quality. sucks the pride right out of me sometimes.

I am a drill sergeant. let me tell you that the current TRADOC/IET/BCT environment makes me want to kick endangered species across the room every time i think about it. these kids are being "pampered", coddled and otherwise not being properly prepaired to serve as lower enlisted in the army. its not about meeting standards, its about what looks good on paper. its about "the new generation" and how "they" respond to us.

They will learn. Once that BFT goes down, or their GPS quits working and they have to use a lensatic compass to get from A to B, or they are too out of shape to make it up the hill in full kit, or they didnt watch the corner like their squad leader said to... I can see it now and its painful.

I wish we still had a bunch of VN vets running things up top who werent afraid to get their hands dirty. our current senior leadership has its head up its 4th point of contact at times.

SSG- "PFC, do this-this-and-that"

PFC- "but SSG, I (insert excuse)

SSG- (excecutes face punch)

GARRARD · December 5th, 2011, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NukMed

So what happens if they are gassed? Will a pro-mask fit?

I read that before the two Sikhs were granted a waiver, they were able to make a seal with their pro-masks; I wonder if it was a half-assed put your hand over the filter seal or one verified by that mask fitting machine.

philip26p · December 5th, 2011, 10:51 AM

Whatsinaname181 you think the ARMY is bad you should take a look at the NAVY and you will see where you are headed. Just imagine you tell a Private to go do something, he/she gives you backtalk, you proceed to chew out the little POS, the little POS goes running to a Sargent First Class, then the Sargent First Class call you over and chews you out for doing your job and proceeds to tell you the times are changing, and you have to treat the little POS with kid gloves and give them a good reason to do anything you tell them to, you just can’t order them around like are in the military.

Whatsinaname181 · December 5th, 2011, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip26p

Whatsinaname181 you think the ARMY is bad you should take a look at the NAVY and you will see where you are headed. Just imagine you tell a Private to go do something, he/she gives you backtalk, you proceed to chew out the little POS, the little POS goes running to a Sargent First Class, then the Sargent First Class call you over and chews you out for doing your job and proceeds to tell you the times are changing, and you have to treat the little POS with kid gloves and give them a good reason to do anything you tell them to, you just can’t order them around like are in the military.

sometimes i wonder if there is a systematic weakening of our military. these social expert think tanks have to have it all mapped out. all of it.

Coffindancer · December 5th, 2011, 11:40 AM

I was so disgusted with this politically correct, soft, gentle way of doing business, it played a huge part of me getting out after four years. Incredible. If someone doesn't want to get cold and wet, don't try to be a SEAL. If someone doesn't want to get greasy, don't be a mechanic. If someone doesn't want to shave their beard, don't join the military. It should be that simple.

philip26p · December 5th, 2011, 11:40 AM

I think it is pretty clear to me that they are weakening our military; they are doing away with our customs and traditions, lowering standards for just about everything, basically turning our military into a kindler gentler military. I would like to see some Vets who have been out for 20-30 years, who spent a minimum of 8 years in the service, go to bases units commands from all branches and see what they say for what they see has changed. I think the current assault on the military is discipline, and once that is eroded enough or gone there will be major problems.

cachunk · December 5th, 2011, 12:06 PM

I just want to go on record and say the following for what it is worth:

I am an American, I am a Jew, I happen to not have a beard despite being "orthodox". While I admire that this Rabbi wants to serve in the Army I think it is disrespectful to the Army to insist that he has to break the rules and the Army has to let him in, if he can not shave then a Rabbi that CAN shave should have his job and he should get a different job.

Phinehas - I do not have dual citizenship.

There is a difference between "reasonable accommodation" and stupid policy. If the Rabbi will end up being maimed or worse, or having troops maimed or worse because he can not wear a mask properly ( if that is true which I will defer to the experts on) then he will have blood on his hands and have to answer to a much higher authority.

Also, this is not Imperial India, this is the US our military discipline is important because our military's mission is important, he should be mindful of not undermining our institutions because he wants to be a chaplain.

Just my .02 on the issue.

lbsnake925 · December 5th, 2011, 12:36 PM

181, it's called "pussification", it is not only the US military, but our society in general that has been attacked. The Military is a microcosm of the general US population. You are seeing modern Americans under a microscope. "Manliness" and it's independent, strong, and responsible character traits are being lost. It doesn't take much homework to realize it is planned and calculated (systematic) through pop culture and public education. It happened to Europe 100 years ago, now it is happening here. Oligarchs and their henchmen claim manliness as theirs, but use every means available to them to destroy the trait amongst the masses or the common man. Oligarchs control government policy and education as well as the media or pop culture. These are the best tools for brainwashing the masses.

Also, I have believed for a decade that perpetual war is also a tool of the oligarchs. The honorable and "manly" of every generation are sent to war to be ground into hamburger. Either they are killed outright, maimed and become wards of the state, or mentally wounded. Ultimately the families of these brave Men that would have been or could have been suffer. This leaves the stampers, dodgers, pussies, and profiteers to breed perpetuating and magnifying the condition you see today.

It is systematic and the outcome is always the same. Slavery and bondage. After some time a morally superior and virtuous population rises up against the oligarchs throwing of the shackles for short period of time. Then their leaders become greedy and corrupt, the society becomes "pussified" and the descent into slavery begins anew. A recent brief but informative study of military history of China helped me understand this cycle.

There will be hell to pay before a moral and virtuous populace will rise again claiming GOD given rights, inalienable rights, to life, liberty, and property.

JMHO lb

Jackalope1911 · December 5th, 2011, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NukMed

So what happens if they are gassed? Will a pro-mask fit?

Exactly.

Everything you guys have said is ringing true with me. I would probably still be in if it weren't for how downhill things are going. Stress cards in basic, really ? When I went through, my Drills literally TOLD me to give another private a sock party because he didn't want to take a shower the first 3 weeks. We didn't give him a sock party, we gave him a bath with SOS pads and dishwashing detergent. Took a shower every day after that.
I really don't understand the whole pussification of the military in general. I can't vouch for the Marines, but I think they are still pretty strict, is that true ? Anyone care to comment on that one ? I know firsthand the Army is going to &%*, and someone here said the Navy too. Not sure about the Air Force either. I just wish we could rewind 20-30 years and keep those standards going without someone up high f'ing it all up. In the long run, the continuing lightening of military standards is just going to cost more lives, of which i'm sure the makers of the "new" standards won't even bat an eye.
*rant off*

hammer 1 · December 5th, 2011, 02:11 PM

I went in when there were ALOT of VN vet NCO's. I was a 17 years old kid and I got slapped in the mouth more than once by a drill. I thought it was how it was. They would also put a fine coat of sweat all over your body, no stress card?!? What the hell is that? Your being TRAINED to do one of the most politically incorrect jobs there is. If you cant do, people die, RIP kicked my butt, I got through it, Ranger school, kicked my butt, I got through it. Dont join if you dont want to conform.

John Crusher · December 5th, 2011, 03:36 PM

The Military is for upholding the Constitution and defending it. I could give 2 sh*ts about somebody in a beard if he's willing to pack a rifle. Rabbi,Priest,Pastor are ALL support roles and if there is a need then so be it, if not, why bother. IMO it's another example of the left trying to weaken and defeat the overall morale and the continued decay of our Military in specific and society in general.