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7.62 X 51 armor piercing ammo ???

This is a discussion on 7.62 X 51 armor piercing ammo ??? within the Ammunition forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; I never hear any mention of AP. Does anybody have a source for some AP 7.62 X 51mm ammo. Is it banned or restricted to ...


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Old February 9th, 2005, 04:22 PM   #1
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7.62 X 51 armor piercing ammo ???

I never hear any mention of AP. Does anybody have a source for some AP 7.62 X 51mm ammo. Is it banned or restricted to LE or Military only. Just looking for some infor here I could use some for some special applications and testing that I want to do at work. Thanks for your replies.

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Old February 9th, 2005, 04:53 PM   #2
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7.62 NATO AP Ammo

okbow68,
Haven't seen loaded AP ammo for 7.62 NATO, but you CAN get the bullets themselves and load them if you have the time. Hope this helps. Oh, BTW, you must have one hell of a fun job to get to test ammo at work :lol:

Here's where I found the bullets: http://www.patsreloading.com
After a brief search, I did find .308/7.62 AP Ammo at: http://www.ammunitionstore.com

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Old February 9th, 2005, 05:27 PM   #3
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Somebody correct me here if I'm wrong but I believe it is illegal to reload .308 using AP ammunition.

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Old February 9th, 2005, 05:34 PM   #4
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WAB71,
I guess that all depends on where you live. As far as I know, people wouldn't be selling AP bullets or loaded ammo in .50 BMG, .30/06, .308/7.62 NATO or .223/5.56 NATO (Current M855 ammo is classified as "semi-AP") if it were illegal, JMHO. I suppose it would behoove you to check the laws in your area.

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Old February 9th, 2005, 06:23 PM   #5
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okbow68,

I have seen the 7.62x51 AP ammo at large Gun Shows for sell...

Oh by the way, WAB71 your correct. Only M1 Garand AP 30.06 ammo is legal with the Fed's.....

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Old February 10th, 2005, 03:16 PM   #6
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Damn near every round of AP that is surplused by Uncle Sucker is demilled. Ya can get the bullets and powder and cases though and load yer own!

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Old February 10th, 2005, 03:32 PM   #7
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M14E2,
I'm confused. So is AP ammo in assembled configuration illegal? Effectively, requiring you to get the components and roll your own?

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Old February 10th, 2005, 04:04 PM   #8
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AP ammo is illegal to sell if you have a FFL.

Otherwise there are no restrictions.

-- Chuck

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Old February 10th, 2005, 05:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6016mech
M14E2,
I'm confused. So is AP ammo in assembled configuration illegal? Effectively, requiring you to get the components and roll your own?

Legal to sell , but not possess? Possess , but not sell? Why would 30-06 be OK but not 7.62/.308? Dunno! I recall something about it but not sure what. I'll look into it. No restrictions in PA that I know of. I've bought USGI 7.62 AP in linked belts at shows

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Old February 10th, 2005, 05:27 PM   #10
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Here it is!

II. Laws
G. Federal Fireams Laws
1. Federal Law and Armor Piercing Ammunition
by James O. Bardwell (bardwell@netcom.com)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WHAT IS AP AMMO, BY FEDERAL LAW?

The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

[Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
are delegated to the Technology Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms (ATF)]

Note the following things from the definition:

1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill (9/14/94),
primarily by the addition of "full jacketed" bullets intended to be used
in a handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.

2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
transfer AP ammo.
>From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the
bullets themselves does.

3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
or should be AP ammo.
However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
handgun.

4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
.223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.

5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.

6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.

ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:

All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para. with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (but not copper).
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.

ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.

WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?

If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo
for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.

If you are a licensed manufacturer or importer:
NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(8)
(with exceptions for making/importing for law enforcement, export, or R&D).
No additional restrictions, except as listed below. This applies
not only to holders of type 10 and 11 FFL's, but also type 7 and 8
FFL's (makers and importers of guns other than DD's), as well as
holders of a type 06 FFL (maker of ammo other than for DD's).

If you are a licensed dealer, manufacturer, importer or collector:
NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo without keeping a record of the sale, similar
to the bound book record for firearm sales. (18 USC sec. 922(b)(5)).
No additional restriction, except on dealers as noted below.
The records required to kept on sale or delivery of AP ammo need only
be kept for two years, not twenty years, like firearm records. See
27 CFR sec. 178.121, and 27 CFR sec. 178.125.

18 USC sec. 923(e) allows the revocation of a dealer's FFL
for willfully transferring AP ammo, with exceptions for sales to law
enforcement and so on. This is dealers only; holders of a collector
FFL (type 03) may willfully transfer AP ammo if they wish, but must comply
with the record keeping noted above.

Some states also regulate or prohibit armor piercing ammo, and these
laws may bear no relation to how the federal law works. For state
laws, check locally. The following states regulate AP ammo,
to my knowledge, but the definition of AP ammo and sort of
regulation may (and likely does) deviate widely from the federal
approach. NV, OK, RI, VA, AL, NY, NJ, IL, IN, KS, LA, MN, FL, PA, TX, NC.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The former statute: 18 USC 921(a)(17)(B) - "The term 'armor
piercing ammunition' means a projectile or projectile core which
may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding
the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination
of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium. Such term does not include shotgun shot required
by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes,
a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the
Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes,
including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device."


That's right , 7.62/.308 is considered a handgun round.

Thanks from gunny8940 and darksoul
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Old February 14th, 2005, 08:48 PM   #11
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M14E2,
Thanks for the info! Now I'll have to get me some AP just to keep on hand :D

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Old February 15th, 2005, 02:46 PM   #12
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Lots of suppliers have pulled bullets. Ya just can't assemble 'em! :roll:

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Old February 24th, 2005, 08:01 PM   #13
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This may be rehashing an old topic but you can load .30 M2 AP into the case of a 7.62x51. I have used 42 grains of IMR4895 with decent results. My friend loads pulled .30 cal M2 AP for his .300 Win Mag......talk about penetration!!

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Old February 25th, 2005, 04:01 AM   #14
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Tazaroo,
What was the cartridge overall length that you loaded your 7.62X51 AP, the same as M80 ball?

Gerry

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Old February 25th, 2005, 06:16 AM   #15
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2.800 is the OAL and I used 41.5gr of IMR 4895, not 42.0 grains. 41.5 fills the case practically all the way. You could go up to 42 grains but that would probably be max. There were no signs of excessive pressure on the case either and accuracy was decent.

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