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Tz - 80

This is a discussion on Tz - 80 within the Ammunition forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; I already bposted this on the Firing Line, But thought it should also be here: On 11-26-2008 I was letting my boys shoot a pile ...


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Old November 28th, 2008, 09:44 AM   #1
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Unhappy WARNING!!!! TZ 308 win = BAD DANGER

I already bposted this on the Firing Line, But thought it should also be here:

On 11-26-2008 I was letting my boys shoot a pile of pumkins in the "Back Yard".
#1son had switched to my M1A and was firin g prone. The ammo was TZ (IMI) 82 (picked up a ice cream bucket full at an estate sale for $5.00). The rounds were miss firing about 1 out of 3 rds. He had fired about 10 rds and the last sounded loud and #1 said he felt a blast. I was standing over him and calling his shots, I looked down and saw the Mag base plate on the ground and the spring sticking out.
I had him safe and ground the M1A, the other boys did the same. We found the case and saw the base was split about 1/4 in. From the markings I'd say the split was over the ejector. The bolt was in full battery, and except for the rapid disassembly of the mag no damage done.
I plan on pulling the rest of the rounds apart, I may sell the bullets and the cases will go into scrap.


All the rds were also marked on the side of the case with "308 WIN" with an ink stamp.
I went thru all the expended rds, the non-firing rds and the left over. I'm only out about 50 rds. and $5.00.
I found two more fired brass that had smaller splits, one had three splits at the base.
There was 79, 80, 81 and 82 marked cases. all had some bad rounds, but 82 seemed to have the most non-fires.
One non-fired rd had the primer base broke off.
Looking at the splits in the cases It almost looked like it was ment to to that. The splits were close in lenght and location. I cannot say for sure, but it does make one wonder....

I re-assembled the magazine and it seems to function fine...tough stuff.
I also wonder if IMI 308/7.62 ammo marked TZZ is OK. I remember many years ago the IMI TZZ 9mm doing bad things to the early M9 Barrettas, like breaking the slides in half.

Thanks from valken, Tommo and budster
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Old November 28th, 2008, 11:52 AM   #2
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Thanks for Posting that, this is the second time that I have heard about Problems of the same kind with that Ammo, either on this Board or the old Battle Rifles, I don't remember, that is why about two or three Years ago when I had a Chance to buy 500 Rounds of loose Israeli Ammo with mixed Head Stamps, TZ, IMI and Hebrew Characters fairly cheap,for $50 I turned it down!

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Old November 28th, 2008, 01:09 PM   #3
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From the .308 Win. markings on the case, I'm thinking that it was reloaded ammo. There had to be a reason for the additional identification added, as the military wouldn't be doing that.

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Old November 28th, 2008, 02:10 PM   #4
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JR! I distinctly remember reading about the same Problem on 80s TZ Ammo several Years ago on either Battle Rifles or Here, You were present then, try to recall!

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Old November 28th, 2008, 03:47 PM   #5
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A copy and paste from the other thread where we talked about this just the other day:

"I had the EXACT same issue with that ammo last summer. I didn't have anything come apart, and didn't notice the case splits until I finished a mag and inspected the brass.

In a single 20 round mag I had 2 short cycles, 2 misfires, and most upsetting 3 case splits. Like I said, I had no indication of a case split when firing, but caught it when I was policing up and inspecting brass. The splits I was having didn't extend down that far into the head, were approximately the same length as yours, but shifted up about a quarter inch.

I was under the impression that I had like 1k rounds of this, but as it turned out I only had about 200 rounds and surveyed them out. Called dad to have him inventory, and he wasn't so lucky.... he had around 500 rounds. Fortunately, he sold them to a guy that wanted to pull them for slugs.

If I recall, somebody else on this forum had a similar problem recently. Should we sticky a warning before something happens worse than a blown out mag? It seems fairly widespread."

I know this had come up before, and I'm 99% certain it was here on this board... I think now the question becomes, "How widespread is the problem?"

Is it a problem with the brass? Or is it a matter of this ammunition not aging well?

I'm fairly sure that I ran some of this out of a bolt rifle (FR-8) and not having a problem...... but that was almost 20 years ago.

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Old November 28th, 2008, 03:53 PM   #6
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What About Israeli IMI ammo dated 4-98?

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Old November 28th, 2008, 05:47 PM   #7
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First, I'm glad your son is OK, second I'm glad everyone else on the firing line is OK, including your gun. I also tend to side with the idea these must be reloads due to the ink stamp, but have always considered IMI to put out good strong stuff so it is puzzling. thanks for the heads up.

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Old November 28th, 2008, 06:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR View Post
From the .308 Win. markings on the case, I'm thinking that it was reloaded ammo. There had to be a reason for the additional identification added, as the military wouldn't be doing that.
Good point, I don't know if they are re-loads or not, but the primers are all swegged (sp?) and are brass colored not silver colored like civilian primers are normally.

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Old November 28th, 2008, 06:36 PM   #9
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Remington 91/2 Primers are the same Color as Factory Primers!

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Old November 28th, 2008, 08:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trung Si View Post
Remington 91/2 Primers are the same Color as Factory Primers!
Would a re-loader swedge the primers in? Or would this re-swedging damage the case for further re-loading?

I have dappled a little in re-loading years a ago, and am not even close to being knowageable at this time.

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Old November 28th, 2008, 08:56 PM   #11
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The Beretta issue was with SMG ammo, and was not necessarily an ammo fault. That was the reason for the "airbag" round slide arrestor being added to the final 92SF design. The ammo was suitable only for it's designed purpose, the UZI SMG.

Man, that 7.62 ammo report does not look to bueno. Use caution until further analysis and comment can be provided!

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Old November 28th, 2008, 09:54 PM   #12
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The crimp would be the tell. Those splits look every bit as bad as the 80's Indian.

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Old November 29th, 2008, 11:44 AM   #13
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I have posted on this in the past, as have others. The story goes that the rounds were not reloads, but were range pick-ups. They are factory loads (Crimped primer and asphalt bullet sealant) but seem to have been subjected to moisture. Some of the ones I pulled had propellant that was green and clumped together. Others did not show clumping but the propellant was obviously deteriorating. I bet they were tumbled at some time and the ink stamp applied during some kind of automated sorting.

I expereinced similar,if not as extensive cracking in my TZ80 headstamps only. All the other years shot well. I pulled all mine (80's) down for projectiles and brass. I scrapped the 80 brass only. So far the others have withstood at least one reloading.

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Old November 29th, 2008, 01:42 PM   #14
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I'm no expert, but in my wanderings I got the impression that splits like those were caused by flaws in the brass during case drawing, rather than some sort of deterioration. Otherwise, the thinner part of the case would have failed, rather than the thickest/strongest part.

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Old November 29th, 2008, 04:17 PM   #15
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This brass is brittle and very hard, it must have been off spec for malleability. This alone would cause issues in forming the original cases. That could lead to case failures like have been reported.

I'm no metallurgist and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But I have been reloading for over 30 years this TZ brass is some of the hardest I've ever tried to work.

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