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Anyone using winchester 748? 223 + 308?

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Old January 1st, 2013, 04:54 PM   #1
Lifer
 
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Anyone using winchester 748? 223 + 308?

Anyone here using Winchester 748 powder? I did work ups for both 223 and 308, so far it seems really slow burning - slower than varget.

My 223 load was LC brass and 69smks from 24.5-25.5 and I didn't see any serious pressure signs on the 25.5 load, I'm thinking I could go to 26. 308 I went from 41.5 to 43 in LC brass w/175smk @ 2.82 and 43 seemed to be the best - again no real pressure signs, in fact the necks were still a bit sooty.

Is this normal for 748? I was expecting it to be a bit faster burning. Also, it was ~30 degrees so maybe the cold affected it?

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Old January 1st, 2013, 05:49 PM   #2
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I at one time used W748 in a 308 bolt gun. These are my memories of that experience:
1- W748 grouped a LOT better as the charge weight increased in that particular caliber and firearm. In fact, I got my best group EVER out of a max charge weight..but that left all kinds of pressure signs on the 5 shot string and the primer pockets were shot after one loading so I tossed that target and never looked back and if I have to run pressures THAT high I felt it was better just to choose another powder. This has been quite a few years back and that lot of W748 is surely gone but I thought I would leave you with the impression that it's likely to work better on the high rather than the low charge side in the 308 Win using W748 according to my own experience in a BOLT ACTION.
2- In my opinion, W748 in a 308 Win case may well benefit from the use of a "hot" or magnum type primer. Myself, I would start with a Win LRP and if that didn't seem to work then try a magnum equivalent or just use a CCI military type primer which IS a magnum primer. Going to a hot or magnum primer will go a long way toward stabilizing ball powder performance in cold weather.
3- Seating the bullet down into the neck at suggested COAL will help keep bullet "pull" higher which also should aid efficient combustion.
....
Win 748 is a good powder but in some ways - in my own opinion - it defies being closely pigeonholed like other powders can be. If it works well, it works well. And if it does work, it's likely to be a happy thing as it definitely flows really well through powder measures.

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Old January 1st, 2013, 06:26 PM   #3
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I like Win 748 in my 5.56mm, can't say for my 7.62mm there i stick with RL-15 and IMR4064 mostly.

Yes is the answer to your other question, ambient air temperature does affect how certain powders burns. And in my Ar's it leaves more carbon in colder air than in say the summer.

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Old January 1st, 2013, 06:51 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob14s View Post
Anyone here using Winchester 748 powder? I did work ups for both 223 and 308, so far it seems really slow burning - slower than varget.

My 223 load was LC brass and 69smks from 24.5-25.5 and I didn't see any serious pressure signs on the 25.5 load, I'm thinking I could go to 26. 308 I went from 41.5 to 43 in LC brass w/175smk @ 2.82 and 43 seemed to be the best - again no real pressure signs, in fact the necks were still a bit sooty.

Is this normal for 748? I was expecting it to be a bit faster burning. Also, it was ~30 degrees so maybe the cold affected it?
I have actually loaded and fired thousands of rounds of 7.62 and 5.56 with WW748. I use "hot" magnum primers exclusively. I load on a Dillon 550 "assault reloader" - hey, it's semi-automatic so let's keep our definitions consistent - so a ball powder meters very well through the measure. I find that my 748 loads are reliable, accurate, and never have any problems.

If you look at the user ratings on Midway USA you will discover that it is top-rated by everyone who has expreience with it.

I load 45 grains with 147-150 gr. bullets for 7.62 and 24.5 grains with 55 grain 5.56 pills.

I stocked up on this powder many years ago. I have no regrets and still have plenty of powder.

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Old January 1st, 2013, 06:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D308FAM View Post
I at one time used W748 in a 308 bolt gun. These are my memories of that experience:
1- W748 grouped a LOT better as the charge weight increased in that particular caliber and firearm. In fact, I got my best group EVER out of a max charge weight..but that left all kinds of pressure signs on the 5 shot string and the primer pockets were shot after one loading so I tossed that target and never looked back and if I have to run pressures THAT high I felt it was better just to choose another powder. This has been quite a few years back and that lot of W748 is surely gone but I thought I would leave you with the impression that it's likely to work better on the high rather than the low charge side in the 308 Win using W748 according to my own experience in a BOLT ACTION.
2- In my opinion, W748 in a 308 Win case may well benefit from the use of a "hot" or magnum type primer. Myself, I would start with a Win LRP and if that didn't seem to work then try a magnum equivalent or just use a CCI military type primer which IS a magnum primer. Going to a hot or magnum primer will go a long way toward stabilizing ball powder performance in cold weather.
3- Seating the bullet down into the neck at suggested COAL will help keep bullet "pull" higher which also should aid efficient combustion.
....
Win 748 is a good powder but in some ways - in my own opinion - it defies being closely pigeonholed like other powders can be. If it works well, it works well. And if it does work, it's likely to be a happy thing as it definitely flows really well through powder measures.
This gentleman is correct, and his experiences mirror my own. Speer also published similiar information in thier loading manuals concerning using magnum strength primers with 748 powder.

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Old January 2nd, 2013, 05:21 AM   #6
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I've used 748 in .223, .300 Savage, and .30-30 all with great results. Haven't tried it in .308 though because almost all of my .308 shooting was in HP competition. With match temperatures frequently being HOT, I didn't want to deal with the temperature sensitivity. Even for the .223, I don't use it for my competition loads for the same issue.

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Old January 2nd, 2013, 08:26 AM   #7
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Thanks for the replies.

748 didn't cycle my action very well either. I don't know what the problem was but my 42 varget loads cleared the action and landed about 6 feet away 2 o'clock while the 748 barely cleared it at all. I guess I'm hesitant to put more than 43 grains in it as most of the loadings I read about for m1a are on the lighter side.

Does 748 cross reference with ball c 2? I had some of that a long time ago and it was the same way, reeaaaalllllllyyyy slow ball powder.

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Old January 2nd, 2013, 08:36 AM   #8
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Yes, my go to powder (748) for mass reloading of .308 Win
I use Fed 210M (match) or any available magnum primers, mostly CCI-250
I have tried all kinds of powders, but 748 meters smooth perfect and
accuracy always stable and outstanding out of M1A and bolt guns
my .223 powder is H-335 for mil-spec M193 (magnum primers too! CCI-450)
748 also used in .30/30 reloads = finest accuracy (magnum primers)
I have been hooked on 748 since the early 1990's
many 1,000's of rounds satisfied and no negatives
best results = hot primers

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Old January 2nd, 2013, 10:34 AM   #9
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My most accurate 223 load with 69 grain SMK bullets is 25.0 grains of W748. The current Winchester primers seem to be really poor quality. Federal cases are weak. Remington rims are a bit soft. Winchester cases hold up well. I like CCI-450 primers.

In 308 I load 43.0 grains of W748 in LC cases with the 168 grain SMK and use CCI-250 primers.

For the 175 grain SMK I load 42.0 grains of W748.

Around 45.0 grains with 150 - 155 grain bullets.

These loads have been accurate in several rifles and case life is decent.

W748 has a steeper pressure curve than most other powders. Slight changes in loads or components can really change the pressure and velocity. That's with changes both up and down, as they can make larger differences than with most other powders.

I use W748 in 30-30 too.

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Old January 2nd, 2013, 10:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob14s View Post
Thanks for the replies.

748 didn't cycle my action very well either. I don't know what the problem was but my 42 varget loads cleared the action and landed about 6 feet away 2 o'clock while the 748 barely cleared it at all. I guess I'm hesitant to put more than 43 grains in it as most of the loadings I read about for m1a are on the lighter side.

Does 748 cross reference with ball c 2? I had some of that a long time ago and it was the same way, reeaaaalllllllyyyy slow ball powder.
W748 is different from BLC(2). There used to be W748BR which was an older Winchester powder that didn't have an long a shelf life and was slightly different from current W748.

If you are having sooty case necks and short cycling, maybe there something is wrong with the loading technique or tools. With match bullets that don't have a cannelure, a roll crimp is not desired and can reduce neck tension. With match bullets make sure the seating die is set to not crimp.

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Old January 2nd, 2013, 06:22 PM   #11
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Thankyou JC that is exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

Thanks from JEHunt
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 08:35 AM   #12
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what are your COAL measurements for those loads? I am using LC cases for 223/308 as well as cci primers and load the 69s to 2.24-2.245 and 175s to 2.8. Am trying to get a feel for if the m1a likes them seated out or short.

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Old January 4th, 2013, 08:41 AM   #13
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I haven't tried to tweak the cartridge lengths much for the auto rifles. I'm more concerned with feeding and magazine function. Generally I load 223 to 2.25" and 308 to 2.80" when loading match bullets.

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