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Max Load for H4895 & 175 gr Sierra Match King

This is a discussion on Max Load for H4895 & 175 gr Sierra Match King within the Ammunition forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Hello, I am trying to figure out the max load I can use in my M14 using H4895 and 175 gr SMK bullets. I am ...


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Old December 18th, 2012, 08:35 PM   #1
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Max Load for H4895 & 175 gr Sierra Match King

Hello,
I am trying to figure out the max load I can use in my M14 using H4895 and 175 gr SMK bullets. I am using CCI 34 primers, and LC brass or Federal military brass. The Hornady manual states that 39.7 gr. can be used with their 178 gr. A Max. Does anybody know what can be used with a 175 gr. SMK?

I currently am using 39.4 gr. that does not group well at 100 yds. but shoots well at distance (500 - 1000 yds). I shot 5 rnds of 40.2 gr. at 200 yds and got a 1 7/16 group. I stopped there as I wanted to look at the brass for pressure signs. They were a little more than the 39.4 gr. load. The primer was slightly flattened, firing pin hole was slightly cratered. I do not want to tear up the rifle, just trying to fine tune.

Thanks in advance.

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Old December 19th, 2012, 01:00 AM   #2
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Current H4895 is made for Hodgdon by ADI in Australia to be able to use the old load data from the previously made in Scotland H4895. It is one of the few ADI powders made to Hodgdon's specs rather than being a standard ADI powder that Hodgdon sells under their name. It is usually slightly faster than IMR-4895.

The old Hodgdon service rifle load data shows a maximum load of 39.0 grains (37.0-39.0gr) of H4895 with the old M118 bullet in a military case and maximum load of 40.0 grains (38.0-40.0gr) of H4895 in a commercial Winchester case.

The old load data from the NRA also shows a maximum load of 39.0 grains of H4895 with the old M118 bullet in a military case.

The powder is not exactly the same powder today that it was back then.

Some sources say you can go to 40.0 grains of H4895 with the 175 grain SMK in a military case.

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Old December 19th, 2012, 02:52 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30calfun View Post
Hello,
I am trying to figure out the max load I can use in my M14 using H4895 and 175 gr SMK bullets. I am using CCI 34 primers, and LC brass or Federal military brass. The Hornady manual states that 39.7 gr. can be used with their 178 gr. A Max. Does anybody know what can be used with a 175 gr. SMK?

I currently am using 39.4 gr. that does not group well at 100 yds. but shoots well at distance (500 - 1000 yds). I shot 5 rnds of 40.2 gr. at 200 yds and got a 1 7/16 group. I stopped there as I wanted to look at the brass for pressure signs. They were a little more than the 39.4 gr. load. The primer was slightly flattened, firing pin hole was slightly cratered. I do not want to tear up the rifle, just trying to fine tune.

Thanks in advance.
this does not make sense. if a rifle is shooting better at longer range than shorter range is 110% YOUR shooting ability/technique, not the load and not the rifle.

This "some bullets/loads shoot better at longer range" and/or the bullet "has to have time/distance to go to sleep" is a MYTH. Besides being range-DIS-proven over and over again in various gun rags, writers, etc., it would only make sense if one could violate the physical laws of the Universe.

1. Bullet "yaw" (which I doubt you have anyway) does NOT get "better" as the bullet goes further downrange or slows down.
2. Assuming your group is not good at 100 yards, say 2MOA in a match rifle at 100 yards. Feel free to explain to me how your bullets "reorganize" themselves at 200 yards or (in your case) at the 500 yard mark to get "closer together" (i.e. "axis of aim") and now start grouping at 1.5MOA or less! It is preposterous.

PS, I don't know if your current load is any good or not, but if you want to get higher velocities with (hopefully) a little less pressure:

1. Change your primer to NON-MAGNUM primers because that is what you are using now. Unless you are going polar-bear hunting, this is totally unnecessary.
2. Buy some Federal commercial or Lapua (not cheap) brass. This will give you at least 2 grs of (water) capacity more than LC.
3. Try Varget instead of H4895.
4. Turn OFF your gas valve when shooting long range and you can shoot any sane .308 load on the planet without worrying about your moving parts (your receiver is EASILY as strong as most any bolt gun).

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Old December 19th, 2012, 07:43 AM   #4
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Besides being range-DIS-proven over and over again in various gun rags, writers, etc., it would only make sense if one could violate the physical laws of the Universe.
Not true, the concept of a bullet going to sleep is actually a result of the laws of physics in action. Between barrel whip, wind, gas jet angle at the muzzle, the gyroscopic movement of a spin stabilized object, etc., the bullet yaws as it moves down it's trajectory but because it's spinning it quickly stabilizes itself.

Quoting Bryan Litz (Berger Bullet's Chief Ballistician)
Quote:
...initial yaw rate damps out quickly as the
bullet ‘goes to sleep’ over a distance of about 50 to 100 yards.
Quote:
...if a bullet were fired with enough of a ‘tip off’ rate from the muzzle to cause a
maximum of 10 degrees of yaw, that yaw would dampen to 5 degrees by 50 yards, and 2
degrees by 100 yards. A bullet fired like this would experience a 7.5% reduction in effective BC, and strike about 4” from center at 100 yards compared to a bullet fired with no ‘tip off’ rate.
The concept of a sleeping bullet is effected by a lot of things and it looks to me like different bullets, barrels, weather conditions, etc will change the amount of drift/yaw and result conflicting information.

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Old December 19th, 2012, 08:32 AM   #5
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initial yaw rates (even for military ball) is VERY minimal (and dissipates way before the target even at 100 yards).

initial yaw for match bullets is WAY less and essentially insignificant. if it was significant, people would not be shooting sub 1/2 MOA groups at 100 yards (or much smaller in BR etc.).

In this SPECIFIC instance, it is absolutely not a factor and the general rule holds. A rifle that shoots 1MOA at 100 yards will CONTINUE to be close to 1MOA at 200, 300 etc. (albeit atmospheric issues start coming into play to a greater degree.

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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:17 PM   #6
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ooops wrong post

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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno View Post
initial yaw rates (even for military ball) is VERY minimal (and dissipates way before the target even at 100 yards).

initial yaw for match bullets is WAY less and essentially insignificant. if it was significant, people would not be shooting sub 1/2 MOA groups at 100 yards (or much smaller in BR etc.).


In this SPECIFIC instance, it is absolutely not a factor and the general rule holds. A rifle that shoots 1MOA at 100 yards will CONTINUE to be close to 1MOA at 200, 300 etc. (albeit atmospheric issues start coming into play to a greater degree.
Just saying that you don't agree doesn't make for a valid argument. I provided proof from a well known ballistician and you simply state that you don't agree. At this point, I prefer to believe Mr. Litz since he is a trained ballistician with an aeronautical degree and he has done experiments that prove that this phenomena really does exist.

Also, note that I said that there are lots of factors that effect the bullet's yaw and that means that it's possible for some amateur, as most magazine writers are, to come to an invalid conclusion based on flawed testing and/or theory.

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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #8
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40.5-41.0gr of H4895 with a 175gr. Matchking is a good proven load. If you can get 2550-2600 fps in a gas gun your doing well. You won't break it and it will shoot. These bullets are best used for 600yds on out to 1000. There are better bullets(lighter and shorter)for short range. You want a primer with a very thick/hard cup to avoid slamfires. The #34's are good primers. If you got under 2" at 200yds you're there, that's under a minute. Load up and shoot. If you can get MOA all day everyday that's an exceptional gun. It isn't a bolt gun with four more inches of barrel and no reciprocating parts with holes drilled in them blowing gas around.

Tom

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Old December 20th, 2012, 02:41 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post
Actually its possible for a rifle to be more accurate at longer ranges than at 100 yards.

Epicyclic Swerve

"This work was done to investigate a question about the grouping ability of rifles at various ranges. Many shooters, including myself, have observed the strange phenomenon of a rifle that groups angularly smaller at long range than short range."
.
[/url]
selective quoting not a good idea:

*******************
to be clear about the conclusions of the modeling: The phenomenon of smaller angular groups at longer ranges was not disproven. The only thing I've shown is that if the phenomenon actually happens, epicyclic swerve is not the cause of it.

The bottom line is that epicyclic swerve cannot cause smaller angular groups at longer ranges. The reason is because it’s so small.


Last edited by AKA Hugh Uno; December 20th, 2012 at 03:08 AM.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 03:00 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMMAC View Post
Just saying that you don't agree doesn't make for a valid argument. I provided proof from a well known ballistician and you simply state that you don't agree. At this point, I prefer to believe Mr. Litz since he is a trained ballistician with an aeronautical degree and he has done experiments that prove that this phenomena really does exist.

Also, note that I said that there are lots of factors that effect the bullet's yaw and that means that it's possible for some amateur, as most magazine writers are, to come to an invalid conclusion based on flawed testing and/or theory.
your ballistics expert says that initial yaw (and doesn't detail how MUCH yaw there is in radians) GOES AWAY in 50-100 yards. The "scientific" explanation is that after traveling a very short distance from the muzzle (my sources say 2000-3000 calibers distance = about 60-90 feet), the transient (or initial) yaw angle becomes essentially zero. With quality bullets with the right twist rate, this initial yaw is pretty close to that to begin with.

Likewise, the testing (and the article MIS-quoted from above) indicate that initial yaw is very small even in military projectiles.

All that leaves us with now is your explanation as to EXACTLY how bullets that IN THIS SPECIFIC SCENARIO (i.e. the OP's) that are already 1-2 MOA out of the axis of aim at say 100 yards adjust themselves BACK to the "right location" as they pass through the 500 yard mark?? (I won't hold my breath).

To repeat myself, the (perceived) problem noted by the OP is almost certainly NOT the rifle, primer, powder, twist-rate, or bullet selection.


Last edited by AKA Hugh Uno; December 20th, 2012 at 03:16 AM.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 07:50 AM   #11
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We are probably arguing semantics at this point, but if you read the piece it states:

*************

The group size never decreases, but the dispersion in terms of MOA does. A subtle but important difference.

*************

This is NOT the same as "my rifle shoots BETTER at longer ranges than short."

This (translated) = "my rifle stops shooting QUITE AS BAD at longer ranges."

(Again) this statement by the OP (as written) defies the laws of physics and is most likely leading him "astray" from his real problem (--if he even has one):

"am currently am using 39.4 gr. that does not group well at 100 yds. but shoots well at distance (500 - 1000 yds)."

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Old December 20th, 2012, 05:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno View Post
This "some bullets/loads shoot better at longer range" and/or the bullet "has to have time/distance to go to sleep" is a MYTH. Besides being range-DIS-proven over and over again in various gun rags, writers, etc., it would only make sense if one could violate the physical laws of the Universe.

What writers is what Magizines? Mythbust this fastoid? and if you believe/agree with those writers and there thinking it will get you nominated for the Rojkohl award here pretty quick.

Here is one from a reputable writer F.L. Murphy, "Tuning a Bench Rest Rifle for Best Short Range Ballistic Coefficient" this article is from Feb 1997 Percision Shooting.

"When a bullet leaves the muzzle, it wobbles a bit and does not fly as true as it will farther down range, when it "goes to sleep" and zips along steadily point first. This early wobbling does two things. First, it increases dispersion and make bigger groups. Second, a wobbling bullet slows down faster than one that stays point-on."

So in a nutshell it is quite possable for a bullet fired at the short line not to give acceptable targeting performance, but work stellar at Mid-range or even better at Long-range distances.

Now I'm just a lowlife Service Rifle shooter, not a bench rest shooter but I have too give credit where credit is due, bench rest shooters know how to load ammo and what it is going to do before the rifle is fired, 99% of there shooting disipline is observing the bullets behavior durring flight, and if a experienced B/R shooter tells me how a bullet behaves in flight at any distance I pay attention to what he's telling me.

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Old December 20th, 2012, 06:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno View Post
your ballistics expert says that initial yaw (and doesn't detail how MUCH yaw there is in radians) GOES AWAY in 50-100 yards. The "scientific" explanation is that after traveling a very short distance from the muzzle (my sources say 2000-3000 calibers distance = about 60-90 feet), the transient (or initial) yaw angle becomes essentially zero. With quality bullets with the right twist rate, this initial yaw is pretty close to that to begin with.

Likewise, the testing (and the article MIS-quoted from above) indicate that initial yaw is very small even in military projectiles.

All that leaves us with now is your explanation as to EXACTLY how bullets that IN THIS SPECIFIC SCENARIO (i.e. the OP's) that are already 1-2 MOA out of the axis of aim at say 100 yards adjust themselves BACK to the "right location" as they pass through the 500 yard mark?? (I won't hold my breath).

To repeat myself, the (perceived) problem noted by the OP is almost certainly NOT the rifle, primer, powder, twist-rate, or bullet selection.
Actually, if you had bothered to read his article that I provided the link for, he does say how much yaw.

Quote:
The results showed that if a bullet were fired with enough of a ‘tip off’ rate from the muzzle to cause a maximum of 10 degrees of yaw, that yaw would dampen to 5 degrees by 50 yards, and 2 degrees by 100 yards.


Last edited by RAMMAC; December 20th, 2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 06:28 PM   #14
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Don't believe what most magazine writers say. I've done a lot of Benchrest shooting, and a little writing in my time, and I know most of those guys. There are Benchrest Shooters and there are Benchrest writers. Most of the writers have never won a Benchrest match in their life. There are a few exceptions, but not many. Jim Carmichael is one. The late Warren Page was another.

One of the reasons P.S. magazine folded was because it's writers, and the articles that were being printed, lost all credibility with the guys who were actually doing the shooting. There simply wasn't any connection.

JMHO

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Old December 20th, 2012, 08:20 PM   #15
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Thanks for the answers, some interesting info in here. From what I gathered regarding the max load for H4895 and a SMK 175 gr. bullet, the answers vary from 39.0 to 41.0 and one source say 40.0 with a military case will work. I am trying to figure out if 40.2 with military brass is too hot of a load for a M14 gas gun. Thanks.

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