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Varget powder and the M1A

10K views 40 replies 22 participants last post by  PKRobbins 
#1 ·
Just wandering is any one using Varget for thier M1A I have 8 pounds and am looking for some load starting load data. I have once fired Lake City brass.
 
#3 ·
I worked up to about 40 grains under a hornady 168gr HPBT. I did not really like it. It really slammed the bolt back hard at that point even though it was published load data for the M1a and not the max either. Accuracy was OK and may have been better if I didnt abandon the load. I switched to IMR4895 and H4895 and it doesnt seem to hit the bolt as hard witch means less stress on the oprod.
Ken
 
#7 ·
There is more of a difference between h4895 and IMR4895 then Varget to IMR4895.

Varget is a bit slower. I have used it in both M1 and M14 with decent results. The only problem I had is it tended to fill the case up alot which would sometimes compress the load depending on what you were stuffing in the neck.

I still have some and plan on using it up.
 
#9 ·
Your rifle might "like" Varget.

I tried Varget in mine and ended up with IMR4895.

Just recently, while working up some 150 grain deer loads for my son's M14S we tried Varget, H4895, IMR4895 and H335. IMR 4895 gave him the best group size.
 
#11 ·
It all depends on if you rifle likes the powder or not. I know some folks use it. I recently got some to try out along with a few other powders. I haven't loaded any of it yet.
 
#13 ·
varget is not a bad powder at all does awesome in an '06 but its just to slow to run in a m1a m14 I wouldn't chance bending breaking my op rod and if you try it you'll find 4895 just can't be beat in one 4064 and varget both do fine in a garand and I can't tell you why but,I've tried them all and I promise you'll wish you just stayed with 4895
 
#14 ·
varget is not a bad powder at all does awesome in an '06 but its just to slow to run in a m1a m14 I wouldn't chance bending breaking my op rod and if you try it you'll find 4895 just can't be beat in one 4064 and varget both do fine in a garand and I can't tell you why but,I've tried them all and I promise you'll wish you just stayed with 4895
I doubt anyone has EVER "broken" an M14 operating rod. Also, unlike the M1 Garand (post-Gas Trap) the M14/M1A gas system is a modified gas cut-off and expansion system (JC White) and thus far less likely to develop excessive port pressures (at least with "normal" powders and bullet weights). Certainly no normal Varget load is EVER gonna upset the M1A/M14 system or bend/break any op-rods. The best answer is TRY it and see how it does.
 
#15 ·
What many are overlooking is the our rifles have a range of powders that work well some are fast and some are a tad slower, with that line of thought keep this is mind when developing your loads you will find that lite bullets well work best with the faster powders, and the heavier bullets work best with the slower powders. This will cut down on reloading frustation, trying too make a non-standard combo work.

110-147 IMR-3031
135-168 IMR-4895
155-175+ IMR-4064

This is just a general rule of thumb and not a absolute and there are load combo's that overlap and still work well thats called powder flexablity and is a good thing to know what works well and what doesn't.

Not that this is a substute for YOUR load development, but what works well in my rifle should work almost as well in yours +/- as long as there not at the extream, if load data sounds wild/outragous question it and for your own safty do your due diligence.
 
#18 ·
Let me see if my camera will get a good picture of my original M1A op rod I broke (twice) back in the early 80's with 180 grain bullets and IMR4350. Best groups my rifle ever shot at 600 yds.
 
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#21 ·
I tried varget. Didn't like it. Went back to H-4895. However, RL15 has produced some very good ammunition for my M1A, especially with the 155 A-Max. Varget is fantastic in 223, but I've never had much luck with it in my M1A.



This was 42.5 RL15,
LC brass (match prepped)
155 A-Max seated .003" into the lands(will not fit mag)
WLR
Disclaimer: this was the BEST group my rifle has ever shot, and is in no way indicative of its usual performance with this load.
 
#23 ·
It cracked. My brother-in-law welded it up for me, we smoothed it down and I went back to using it (with the same loads) and cracked it again. Then I read an article in a magazine about slow burning powders, M1 Garand and M1A/M14 rifles and sadly put the IMR4350 away.

The hand sized groups at 600 yds. was sweet. The busted op rod busted the balloon.

 
#24 · (Edited)
would suspect it was flawed to begin with. The M14 Op Rod spring is all of about 15 pounds (best I recall anyway). Even if the gas port pressure on your slow-powder load went up 25%-50% (and the higher end of this range is pretty unlikely), it would still not create enough force to faze a piece of high tensile steel. It might wear or ding up the op-rod tab after a while I suspect (with the follow-up dismount issues), but not enough force to crack or break the rod itself.
 
#28 ·
hurt you how??????????? I thought aka said it only had 15 pounds of pressure that shouldnt hurt any body?????????????everybody plays call of duty and thinks the know every thing about weapons that 15 pound spring you spoke of is there to slow recoil of the bolt with the right powder the pressure is not out of pocket and is over before the carrier part of the op rod reaches the back of the reciever if you use a slower burning powder it continues to build pressure after it reaches the rear of the reciever and it will mess something up with contined use p.s. how about posting a video holding the bolt shut by hand useing varget
 
#34 ·
I dont care what powder you use, If you take the heel of your palm and hold the OP Rod completely forward then pull the trigger with your left hand, the gun will not cycle, your hand will not get hurt, and you will have an expanded piece of brass in your chamber that will be somewhat difficult to get out. Hence the reason this is done to teach failure drills as opposed to just putting a dummy round in a chamber. Also try shooting a glock or any other handgun without a hammer and holding it shut with your thumb on back of the slide. Works the same way. Momentum helps a lot in the operation of a gun.

However if you dont hold it firmly forward, or get your hand in the way of a moving slide or op rod, it will cut/ hit you with great force, possibly causing injury. Ask any highpower shooter who had gotten his fingers in the way of the handle while shooting offhand, especially lefties. Also there were a few lefties( very few) who shot offhand that purposfully placed thier hand against the op rod handle to prevent any movement in offhand, and would just rack the brass out manually. Thats just how they felt comfortable shooting. You dont see it a lot now as Highpower is dominated by AR's, but I came up in the Days of the 14 and still remember seeing this.

thats because of the locking lugs on bolt, it has nothing to do with op rod
Yes, but since the op rod is what holds the bolt forward, thats where you hold. Id be more than happy to send you a video of me doing this to my glock or even a mini 14, but my m 14's are all out of commission right now whilst I weld up the gas cylinders and bed them. Just pm me your cellphone Number and Ill get on that monday or tuesday and you can post it to the board, I have no idea how to post a video.
 
#33 ·
Man, the Varget debate still rages on, just like the great primer debate. In our Rifles the tried and true IMR powders 3031-4064 work well and you can lump the Hodgdons 4895-4064 in there as well, staying within this burnning range window never hurts and for a new reloader/shooter to the M1 Garand and M1a is sage advice, done been there and have a few T-shirts too show for it.

For eons reloading manuals listed load data for BOLT GUNS not Service Rifles, and they used commercial brass. People new to reloading/rifle used this data in mil-spec cases that are commonly used by Service Rifle shooters not knowing thier differnce, because they were told too just drop this much powder in a case and go shoot it. I suspect thats the real reason Varget got the bad rap for being slloowww.

If you look at Hodgdons/IMR burn rate chart you will see that Varget is slower than the 4064's but they don't say by how much slower, could be a little or could be alot. In my experance Varget is next right door too 4064. But don't take my word for it due you own load work up but keep the velocitys within reason for there respective bullet weights.

And to add some fuel too the fire, the are reloaders that talk Varget down as being too slow but sing the wonders of BL-C(2) a even slower powder.

All I can say is uhmmm..... and scratch my head.
 
#36 ·
I realize this horse is pretty dead....but I thought I saw a twitch of his tail.

I love Varget in my bolt guns. I love 4895 in the M1A.

If I sold my bolt guns and only had the M1A to load for, I would probably sell or trade off my 20 lbs of Varget.

But, I would not say you can't use Varget safely in the M1A. It just isn't ideal. I think we all know that port pressure will be higher at a given MV with Varget due to the shape of the pressure curve.

Just don't try to hotrod it with the Varget.

My $0.02


Tim
 
#40 ·
Care & Attention in Feeding This Animal.

I realize this horse is pretty dead....but I thought I saw a twitch of his tail.
Phunny!

Anyhow, I just bought 8# of Varget, some of which will be used in my SA NatMatch. I've tried it in the past in slightly reduced loads, and had no particular problems.

For what it's worth, the micro size of those Varget granules does indeed produce some spectacularly consistent loads that run through your powder measure far FAR better than 4064, which is like cutting firewood!

I'd be very leery of a load or rifle combo that produced excessive slamming just from using Varget at a known load. I wonder what else may be going on there. And you never see that problem with other powders? If you are using, for example, Lake City military brass, you may have overloaded it a bit, given the reduced case capacity of all military brass. If you couple that reduced capacity with, say, a standard loading manual's .308 load, look out Margie!

My all-time favorite .308 M1A load now, though, is AA 2520, the "Camp Perry Powder". 43 gr of that one, CCI #34 primer, under a 155. gr Sierra Match bullet, produces MoA, or just sub-MoA groups @ 100 yds, and ditto @ 400 yds, where I landed 3 rounds inside of 3.75". There was even a slight crosswind on that day! A-frickin'-mazing! "Achmed the soon-to-be dead terrorist"? Beware!

As for a slightly reduced load of Varget, what have you tried? It's almost always best to have at least a 100% load density to minimize powder position effects. Even a slight (1- 2mm) compression will ensure that your powder is ALWAYS in the same position. But that's also not always possible with the right "speed" of powder.

Many guys think the word "compression" means that you've over-loaded the round somehow. Nope. If your brass will take, let's say, 45gr, and you dump in 50, then yeah; stand back. But if it takes 45gr and you load 45.2, no problem. There's always some compression room with most every powder, though with Varget, not so much (it's such a super-fine powder to begin with...).

Always err on the safe side. We want all of you around to read our glorious posts and insightful threads in the future!

Just thinking out loud... Perhaps, with that slamming hard load, you might have used a standard .308 hi-vel recipe for Varget, not a lower load out of deference to the M1A's known preference for slightly reduced loadings? Meh-bee yes?

Careful, folks! Dohn'be stressin' your "Lucky Lucys" out!
 
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