chefcam864

H-4895 is equally indifferent to temperature, delivers better accuracy in every gas gun I've loaded for, and is a known "safe" powder in the M1A. Why rock the boat?

Blademaker

Interesting read, so far I've had better accuracy with Varget over anything else. But that was with 168 sierra's and both my rifles have NM pistons, the ones with the vents that cause some peoples rifles to short stroke.

Phil McGrath

Man, the Varget debate still rages on, just like the great primer debate. In our Rifles the tried and true IMR powders 3031-4064 work well and you can lump the Hodgdons 4895-4064 in there as well, staying within this burnning range window never hurts and for a new reloader/shooter to the M1 Garand and M1a is sage advice, done been there and have a few T-shirts too show for it.

For eons reloading manuals listed load data for BOLT GUNS not Service Rifles, and they used commercial brass. People new to reloading/rifle used this data in mil-spec cases that are commonly used by Service Rifle shooters not knowing thier differnce, because they were told too just drop this much powder in a case and go shoot it. I suspect thats the real reason Varget got the bad rap for being slloowww.

If you look at Hodgdons/IMR burn rate chart you will see that Varget is slower than the 4064's but they don't say by how much slower, could be a little or could be alot. In my experance Varget is next right door too 4064. But don't take my word for it due you own load work up but keep the velocitys within reason for there respective bullet weights.

And to add some fuel too the fire, the are reloaders that talk Varget down as being too slow but sing the wonders of BL-C(2) a even slower powder.

All I can say is uhmmm..... and scratch my head.

akajun

I dont care what powder you use, If you take the heel of your palm and hold the OP Rod completely forward then pull the trigger with your left hand, the gun will not cycle, your hand will not get hurt, and you will have an expanded piece of brass in your chamber that will be somewhat difficult to get out. Hence the reason this is done to teach failure drills as opposed to just putting a dummy round in a chamber. Also try shooting a glock or any other handgun without a hammer and holding it shut with your thumb on back of the slide. Works the same way. Momentum helps a lot in the operation of a gun.

However if you dont hold it firmly forward, or get your hand in the way of a moving slide or op rod, it will cut/ hit you with great force, possibly causing injury. Ask any highpower shooter who had gotten his fingers in the way of the handle while shooting offhand, especially lefties. Also there were a few lefties( very few) who shot offhand that purposfully placed thier hand against the op rod handle to prevent any movement in offhand, and would just rack the brass out manually. Thats just how they felt comfortable shooting. You dont see it a lot now as Highpower is dominated by AR's, but I came up in the Days of the 14 and still remember seeing this.

Yes, but since the op rod is what holds the bolt forward, thats where you hold. Id be more than happy to send you a video of me doing this to my glock or even a mini 14, but my m 14's are all out of commission right now whilst I weld up the gas cylinders and bed them. Just pm me your cellphone Number and Ill get on that monday or tuesday and you can post it to the board, I have no idea how to post a video.

jwisecarver

Picked up some 4895 and have some 4064 will give those a try and see how they work out.

Tarbe

I realize this horse is pretty dead....but I thought I saw a twitch of his tail.

I love Varget in my bolt guns. I love 4895 in the M1A.

If I sold my bolt guns and only had the M1A to load for, I would probably sell or trade off my 20 lbs of Varget.

But, I would not say you can't use Varget safely in the M1A. It just isn't ideal. I think we all know that port pressure will be higher at a given MV with Varget due to the shape of the pressure curve.

Just don't try to hotrod it with the Varget.

My $0.02


Tim

Blademaker

It's funny that you mention port pressure. I'm thinking, could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, that the NM piston relieves more port pressure than stock GI and that's why I get better accuracy with Varget and 168 grainers. If my thinking is rite, and I switched to a stock GI piston and shot 150 grainers I'd get better accuracy with 4895?

Tarbe

There are lots of variables, so impossible to know for sure from the keyboard....but you could be right!





Tim

Blademaker

Interesting ready anyway,

In any event, my loads with either powder will do better than I can!

MesaRifle

Phunny!

Anyhow, I just bought 8# of Varget, some of which will be used in my SA NatMatch. I've tried it in the past in slightly reduced loads, and had no particular problems.

For what it's worth, the micro size of those Varget granules does indeed produce some spectacularly consistent loads that run through your powder measure far FAR better than 4064, which is like cutting firewood!

I'd be very leery of a load or rifle combo that produced excessive slamming just from using Varget at a known load. I wonder what else may be going on there. And you never see that problem with other powders? If you are using, for example, Lake City military brass, you may have overloaded it a bit, given the reduced case capacity of all military brass. If you couple that reduced capacity with, say, a standard loading manual's .308 load, look out Margie!

My all-time favorite .308 M1A load now, though, is AA 2520, the "Camp Perry Powder". 43 gr of that one, CCI #34 primer, under a 155. gr Sierra Match bullet, produces MoA, or just sub-MoA groups @ 100 yds, and ditto @ 400 yds, where I landed 3 rounds inside of 3.75". There was even a slight crosswind on that day! A-frickin'-mazing! "Achmed the soon-to-be dead terrorist"? Beware!

As for a slightly reduced load of Varget, what have you tried? It's almost always best to have at least a 100% load density to minimize powder position effects. Even a slight (1- 2mm) compression will ensure that your powder is ALWAYS in the same position. But that's also not always possible with the right "speed" of powder.

Many guys think the word "compression" means that you've over-loaded the round somehow. Nope. If your brass will take, let's say, 45gr, and you dump in 50, then yeah; stand back. But if it takes 45gr and you load 45.2, no problem. There's always some compression room with most every powder, though with Varget, not so much (it's such a super-fine powder to begin with...).

Always err on the safe side. We want all of you around to read our glorious posts and insightful threads in the future!

Just thinking out loud... Perhaps, with that slamming hard load, you might have used a standard .308 hi-vel recipe for Varget, not a lower load out of deference to the M1A's known preference for slightly reduced loadings? Meh-bee yes?

Careful, folks! Dohn'be stressin' your "Lucky Lucys" out!

PKRobbins

Just send me the Varget. My bolt gun loves 44.6grns under a 168SMK . Being new to the world of the service rifle I'm burning 4895 in my M1A. There are generations of shooters that this has served well, the one thing I learned shooting bolt guns there is really no need to reinvent the wheel.