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Good starting load

7K views 38 replies 21 participants last post by  mibeersnob 
#1 ·
I have some load data from IMR and a few manuals I have but I was just wondering what your guys experiences have been with IMR 4895 and 150 grain Winchester boat tail bullets and CCI primers. I am not looking for match accuracy just a good plinking round that won't beat up my my SOCOM 16. My data shows 42.6 as a starting point but I have been reading on here people starting with less powder. I am not sure if I should change the charge because of the 16.25 barrel.
 
#2 ·
42.0-44.0 grains would be OK using IMR 4895. While the 44.0 grain charge weight isn't the highest possible chamber pressure, it is starting to push the port pressure higher than I prefer. I'd stick with the 42-43 grain range for a plinking load using IMR 4895.

But I prefer IMR 3031 in the short barrel, it burns more completely and it produces higher velocities without too high of pressure. With the short barrel you can get some pretty good groups without beating the rifle up. I like 41.5gr of IMR 3031 using a Hornady 155gr Amax. I get nice groups and just about 2500 fps with this load from my SOCOM 16.
 
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#3 ·
I have to agree with the Master, RAMMAC.
IMR 3031 is most efficient out of the Socoms short barrel without the shortfalls.
I have also had success with Ramshot TAC. 42.2gr. with 155gr A-MAX bullet.
TAC also worked well with the 130gr OTMRP pulled bullets I did a thread on. My rifle liked these bullets with 45.8-46gr of TAC giving a velocity between 2810-2830fps.
As with any loads, work them up to see what your rifle likes.

Glenn
 
#5 ·
I'll pick up some 3031 tomorrow. Like i said i am going for a good reasonable accurate mild load that will yiled decent powder economy. BTW how many rounds more or less are you guys getting out of a pound of 3031?
160-170 per pound of powder, depending on your exact powder charge weight.
 
#7 ·
Also after trimming to correct OAL and using the full length sizing die should I be using a lyman case length/headspace gauge as well? I have been but if I can omit this step by running full length sizing dies I will. Loading for M1A's is different then my other semi-autos I just want to take the extra steps necessary.
 
#8 ·
Well some of us are a little more involved.
I measured my rifles actual head space and use a modified Hornady headspace gauge to set the cartridge headspace. RAMMAC uses the Sinclair bump gauge to compare his headspace. It is steel and you don't have to maintain it like the Hornady one.
I check each case with the Hornady gauge and my Dillon case gauge...I should mention I am Anal about reloading. I also double check my powder load on two different scales.(Anal)
The thing with case gauges is they do not give you a specific headspace measurement. But they are better to use than nothing.

I only use military grade cases for reloading my Socom. M14/M1A's are rough on brass. Depending on the manufacturer, I reload a case 3-5 times max...(Max being GGG brass) Unless you get new military or LC LR brass you will need to remove the primer crimp. I also uniform the primer pocket(depth)

This should give you some things to think about.
I hope this helped and did not confound.

Glenn
 
#9 ·
I have some 155gr amax I want to shoot out of my SOCOM however I only have varget.

I have the hornady 7th edition manual and will load under the m1a service rifle section.

I also have the headspace tag from Springfield and it says, " this rifle has been headspace to 1.631 in. According to GI Specs"

Do I need special dies to get that close for the little spacing between the bullet and rifling? I only have some Lee dies, full sizer, crimped and bullet seater.
 
#10 ·
I don't know what Geepee3's opinion is but if I had to use Varget then I'd try about 42.5 grains. Obviously you should work up to that load and you might find that your final powder charge weight is over or under by a few tenths of a grain but you should get pretty good performance somewhere around there. The short barrels really need a slightly faster powder in order to get the best out of them.

Your dies are fine, you want the headspace of the case to be at least 0.003" - 0.004" shorter than what is on the tag, so you should be trying to size your case to about 1.627" - 1.628" at least. Most commercial and milsurp ammo will have a headspace of somewhere around 1.625".

The one tool that I would recommend having, at a minimum, when you are checking your sized cases is a case gauge. Lee, Lyman, Wilson, all make these gauges. All they are is a cylinder gauge that checks the headspace and trimmed length of the cases. You insert the case in to the gauge and depending on how it fits, it will demonstrate that the case meets the SAAMI sizing spec or not. There are other tools that will give you actual measurements but the case gauge will at least keep you from having chambering problems.
 
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#14 ·
You have to have a gage for cases that looks like this



[ame]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007X0PNB6/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/190-0200477-1136657?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=1R9MRV8QP9DH8RREHRB4&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_i=B000NOSGOU[/ame]
 
#16 ·
Here are the two tools we keep referring to.



The one on the left is a Lyman case gauge.
The tool on the right is the Hornady headspace gauge body with a Sinclair headspace insert and the Hornady anvil all attached to a caliper.

The case gauge is quicker to use but it isn't as precise, plus it's a gauge, not a measuring device. All the case gauge does is tell you if the case passes or fails the minimum standards, it wont tell you how much it passes or fails by. The headspace gauge will give you numbers, they might be relative rather than true values (if the insert is worn or the caliper is out of calibration) but the numbers can be used to compare one case against another.

Here is an example of how to use both.

A case that started out measuring 2.026" long from the base to the mouth also measured 1.632" at the headspace datum line on the shoulder.




It looked like this in the case gauge. The black thing on top of the case gauge is a flat spot on my caliper that I used as a flat bar that I placed over the base of the case.

Headspace
Notice the slight gap between the flat bar and the top of the gauge (on either side of the case).


Normally you can't fit an unsized case into the gauge but in this circumstance, I used a case that had been resized too long and hadn't been trimmed yet.

Trimmed-To-Length
Here is the other end of the case gauge and you can see that the mouth of the case extends past the top of the gauge. This case is 0.011" too long.


The case gauge let you know that the case was too large for the chamber, it just didn't tell you by how much. The Hornady headspace gauge, on the other hand, told me exactly what the dimensions were.

So I resized and trimmed the case.

Headspace
Now 1.629"


Which looks like this in the Lyman gauge. Notice that now there is no gap between the flat bar and the top of the gauge.


Trimmed-To-Length
I trimmed the case to the SAAMI max, 2.015" just so you could see how it looks in the case gauge.
Here is the caliper reading.


And here is the Lyman case gauge.


I hope this wasn't too long, but it seemed like we had enough new guys that I thought it might be beneficial to show them what we are talking about in detail.
 
#18 ·
I hope this wasn't too long, but it seemed like we had enough new guys that I thought it might be beneficial to show them what we are talking about in detail.
Well, you've certainly answered my questions; your photos and write-up were excellent.

I noticed in a couple of the photos (the trimmed case 2.015" photo in particular) that the case has a 'whitish' line about 1/3rd inch above the base. All of my once fired Winchester brass has that line. I'm assuming that line is actually abrasion marks and appears pronounced simply because there is no case expansion (due to the web) or abrasion below that point.

Does the shiny case separation indication appear in that same area? Or is that possibly the indication of case separation that I've read about?
 
#19 ·
During firing, the case expands in that area and when you resize it the die creates that shiny ring.

Yes, the case will normally separate in that same area because it is in the area of where the web thins on the inside. The best place to monitor for excessive expansion is on the inside.



The case on the left is fine but the case on the right is showing excessive expansion and it has already cracked (note where the left arrow is pointing).
 
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#20 ·
Rammacs' pix

This was the best show and tell for the newbies and what they need to aquire to complete the essentials at the bench, complete w/pix showing their use.
Best pictures to date showing the ease of use for the equipment required for safer reloading and QCing of cases fired or not.
All the while showing those new to reloading what they need to be seeing at their benches to be safe, both for themselves and others around them at the range during fire sessions.

great guns, bravo and many thanks to you sir !! RAMMAC rulz!



dave
 
#23 ·
There are a lot of good powders for the 308/7.62mm.

However this load was given to me by a friend @1974.

I have used it for High Power Metallic Sillhoutte, High Power Rifle/Service Rifle/ in LEO/Military Sniper Rifle matches, and in hunting.

It has performed perfectly in single shot, bolt rifle, lever actions, FN-Fal's, M1 308 Garands, M1-A's, H&K 91's and AR type 308's.

Just this last deer season I killed deer, turkey, and 2 wild pigs with it in an H&K 91.

The Powder 39.5gr of IMR 3031. I have used this load with Sierra 168 Match King, Sierra 165 HPBT Gameking, 165 Spitzer Gameking, 165gr Nosler Partition, 165gr Nosler Solid Base, and 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tip.

In most rifles this load shoots as good, sometimes better than 168gr Federal Match.

It is not a hot load, actually it is fairly mild, but I have killed antelope with it at a little over 550 yards.

I have never seen any 308/7.62mm rifle that did not shoot this load very good.

In my H&K 91 I found that 42gr of IMR 3031 and 150 gr Nolser Solid Base bullets hit the same place as most Military ball.

And this load kills deer very good...

IMR 3031 has worked so well for me over the years that I have never seen a reason to change.
 
#25 ·
39.5gr of IMR 3031.

I have never seen any 308/7.62mm rifle that did not shoot this load very good.

In my H&K 91 I found that 42gr of IMR 3031 and 150 gr Nolser Solid Base bullets hit the same place as most Military ball.

And this load kills deer very good...

IMR 3031 has worked so well for me over the years that I have never seen a reason to change.
My best 168gr loads have been 39.1gr of IMR 3031, 41gr of IMR 4064, or IMR 4895; all give me very good groups.

Our 3031 loads are virtually the same, and yet they were worked up, independently, by three different people, to me that verifies that it is one of those classic loads that just work.
 
#27 ·
I don't have a load that I've personally tested but I have suggestion at where to start.

I'd try about 40.5gr of IMR 3031, using a Trim-To-Length of 2.005", and an overall length of 2.80". I would recommend a non-magnum primer, my preference is Federal 210M primers but a lot of people have a heart attack over that since they claim that they have too soft of cup and can be dangerous. I've never had a problem with them and I figure that if the primer is good enough for the military to use in their sniper ammo then it should be good enough for me.

This load should produce a fairly low chamber pressure but the port pressure is getting a little high (not over the safe level but slightly warm). Like all loads though, you should work your up to it slowly and check for pressure signs. Your final load will probably be up or down a couple of tenths of a grain of powder.
 
#29 ·
I have been using Accurate 2520 for my M1-A and Garand for years. It is a clean burning double based ball powder that meters very well and has about the same burn rate as 4895. I get good results and about 2750 fps with 42.0 grains pushing a 168 grain Nosler. Though you may want a slightly faster powder as others have mentioned.
 
#34 ·
Powder question

I read in this thread earlier that 3031 was the go-to powder for the socom rifle; can anyone tell me if that will work for government model(22")?

I have shot with both 3031 and 4064 in my govt model with I don't know what grain bullet but I uncovered a stash of ~145 grainers from Wideners.

Now that I found my old Hornady book I see that my favorite for 223(AA2230)is also a possibility.
 
#35 ·
I love me some 3031.
39.3 grains in a LC case with a 168 grain BTHP
 
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#37 ·
as per the cutaway pic of the two cases illustrating pending head case failure/wear........i use a paperclip bent at the end (yes, i know, its an old trick, i'm not suggesting i thought it up etc etc, i'm not that smart) to cull suspect cases. or i use a sharpie and on a new case put a line between the primer and the edge of the case. when i fire it and reload it i place another another line. when theres 4 lines i chuck it after its fired. on once fired cases i buy i reload it and put 2 lines on it. if someone has a better system please let me know. love to learn new tricks. or an excuse to buy another reloading tool.
 
#38 ·
I just stumbled on this thread too.

Great pics & instructions on how to measure the headspace gauge body, insert and anvil attached to the caliper jaws. I knew nothing about this but I am familiar with the steel case gauge.

Also I'm going to grab a pound of IMR 3031 to try.

Thanks guys!
 
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