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TulAmmo or Silver Bear: Should I even try?

This is a discussion on TulAmmo or Silver Bear: Should I even try? within the Ammunition forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Originally Posted by Mocos well...just out of curiosity, when did steel cased rifle ammo appear.... certainly after brass cased ammo. That would suggest that the ...


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Old May 8th, 2012, 07:23 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mocos View Post
well...just out of curiosity, when did steel cased rifle ammo appear.... certainly after brass cased ammo. That would suggest that the designers of the steel cased ammo would have taken into account the metal properties needed to duplicate brass. Brass cases were sufficiently strong enough then so I am thinking that there wasn't a requirement to produce anything stronger than brass. Wolf attempted polymer cases a few years back without any success. I don't recall any attempts at aluminun rifle ammo.
I think that is a good question, and I hope somebody provides a serious and correct response!

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Old May 8th, 2012, 07:36 PM   #47
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I've shot a lot of Silver Bear 308 out of my M1A. Not a problem in over 500 rounds. I clean the chamber after every range session. Accuracy isn't bad and the powder charge feels consistent between shots. FWIW, max pressure on the Silver Bear is about 42k which is significantly less than 7.62 Nato and 308 Win which is around 52k and 62k respectively.

In my opinion, Silver Bear and Brown Bear is fine for plinking. Both come out of the Barnaul plant in Russia and is much more consistent than whatever Wolf imports or even POF.

With regards to concerns about steel-cased ammo... don't forget that your weapon is made from tool steel. The steel casings used by Russian manufacturers is much softer. I've used steel-cased ammo in just about every firearm I own for the last 18 or so years without problem. Whether or not you believe that is up to you. Personally, I'd rather shoot more and worry less. If I ever did break or wear a component out, I'd replace it and keep going. I've saved a lot of money plus honed my skills shooting with cheaper ammo and saving the good brass for hunting or competition.

Interesting read:
http://www.barnaul.co.nz/index.php?page=why-steel

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Old May 8th, 2012, 07:41 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Mocos View Post
not sure that is entirely true...I read that because the steel cases do not expand as fast as brass upon firing and seal the bore, that gasses and carbon blow back into the neck and chamber and is the main source of 'gunking" up the chamber to the point where feeding and extraction becomes a problem..some guns exhibit it more than others and some don't at all. As far as the coating accumulating on the chamber walls...possibly....I would think that the chamber temperatures get so hot that any coating would be vaporized...so I think the carbon build up is more plausible...
This.

Steel doesn't expand as much as brass. The crap in your chamber isn't lacquer. Its powder residue that eventually cakes up. Switching over to brass from steel without cleaning the chamber can result in the brass sticking to the fouled chamber walls. Just clean your chamber before switching over to brass and you're good to go.

I've taken a propane torch to an empty lacquer case once and the lacquer didn't melt off.

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Old May 8th, 2012, 07:45 PM   #49
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I think that is a good question, and I hope somebody provides a serious and correct response!

CAVman in WYoming
Well, back in WWII, the US was issuing steel-cased .45 to GIs. Steel-cased ammo has been around a long time.

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Old May 9th, 2012, 06:13 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Mocos View Post
it really does happen.....consider yourself fortunate ...
You certainly have my interest now,,could you point me in a direction so that I could research this further?

I don't remember ever reading that high pressure could back out a primer (I am not saying that it won't happen), but would like to study it further.

Sorry about the drift here.

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Old May 9th, 2012, 06:25 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amstel78 View Post
This.

Steel doesn't expand as much as brass. powder residue that eventually cakes up.
coincidence?
If it doesn't expand as much, it doesn't seal as well.

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Old May 9th, 2012, 08:29 AM   #52
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coincidence?
If it doesn't expand as much, it doesn't seal as well.
No coincidence; merely something one has to be aware of when alternating between steel-cased and brass cartridges without properly cleaning the bore. People will often mistakenly blame the lacquer for stuck brass cases when the lacquer really has nothing to do with it.

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Old May 9th, 2012, 08:38 AM   #53
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What does have to do with it is the elasticity of the case, it's ability to expand to seal the chamber and contract to facilitate extraction. The difference between the unfired case, the case under pressure, the fired case and the chamber size is the margin you have to work with for reliable operation.

Einstein said "Everything should be a simple as possible, but not simpler."
stoky's corollary says everything shoud be as cheap as possible but not cheaper.

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I'll reload.

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Old May 21st, 2012, 08:38 PM   #54
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With regards to low pressure resulting in a primer that protrudes from the case...It can and does indeed. But it is not the primer backing out! Rather it is the casing not backing UP.

The expansion cycle of a casing is the culprit. When the powder ignites and pressure builds up in a case, it expands outward first...radially until it hits its chamber walls.

Then, as there is no other way to go, it expands front to back until it reaches the bolt face. The reason it is not always growing forward as well as backward so much is because the impact of the firing pin has knocked the cartridge as far forward as it can travel while still being held by the extractor. Granted that is only a couple thou, but "GO" specs for chambers are only a couple thou. and that primer only protrudes a couple thou, right?

Anyway, what happens with low chamber pressure is that the case cannot overcome the friction of pressing against the chamber walls radially to come back very far at all, however the primer does protrude, and the case just ain't coming back to reseat itself onto it against the bolt face.

Thats also why high pressure crushes the primer flat!

And why a backed out primer can be an indicator of excess headspace as well.

With steel cases being less ...expandy...than brass to begin with, or elastic or what have you, I figure thats why we see primers backed out a bit in the 14. And they tend to be loaded a little milder than brass ammo.


First time I ever saw this condition manifest was reloading for a 30-30 Winchester. The starting loads in the manual are very low pressure. 26,000 PSI probably not unheard of. 30-30 maxes out at 36,000. You can start a load seeing primer poking out, and as you work up the load, its magically gone!

Gave one of my teachers fits arguing it was a sign of low pressure as well as high pressure afterwards, in school ;)

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Old June 27th, 2016, 10:38 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by lbsnake925 View Post
There are many opinions about this on the forum, many leaning towards no steel in the M1A.

I'll share mine. IMO

I put 2000 Tula through mine and it still shoots great (I may have lost some Forum friends). I was looking for experience shooting the RWVA Army Qualification Test(AQT). 40 rounds per AQT, 10 rounds per stage. Rapid fire sitting and prone stages have a reload and requires practice, practice, practice.

You can shoot this all day with the .22 and not feel it in the wallet, but the .22 does not mimic the manly heft and recoil of the M1A. The basics directly overlay, but recoil management and recovery is a big deal when firing rapid fire at Rifleman's cadence.

At .30 to .40 cents a round, you do twice as many AQTs.

Inexpensive brass stuff is better, but you have to roll with it. Your financial situation may be different than other people.

Gunky dirty ammo? A battle rifle is just that, a battle rifle. If it can't eat crap and keep spitting, better find a different battle rifle.

Accuracy? At 600 with iron sights on 18' steel, 7 of 10 hits shooting prone unsupported. The misses were operator error.
I was glad to see this post - I just got 500 rounds of TULAMMO .308 for pretty cheap. I am now doing research about whether or not I should shoot it or not. I think I am going to just do It, and if there are consequences then hey -that's another opportunity to fix the rifle that i'll probably learn some more on.

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Old June 27th, 2016, 12:01 PM   #56
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Well, there is a lot of it (steel cased ammo) lying around now, or at least available for purchase. I think whatever supply/preparation choices we make, if any, when it dries up, it's all going to dry up.

As an aside, in our old west re-enacting, primers backing out can jam up a revolver's cylinder fairly easily. There are a couple of approaches taken to reduce the problem but it's definitely a low pressure situation when using blanks.

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Old July 24th, 2016, 07:28 AM   #57
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Try ZQI ammo bought 640 for $330.00 out the door to mine. Brass boxer primed.open sights 100yds 20 rds on 8x11 target. Bought it at SG Ammo out of Oklahoma.

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Old July 24th, 2016, 12:19 PM   #58
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This^^^^, or you can get Hirtenberger pretty cheaply from SGAmmo. I have seen too many problems at the range with steel cased ammo in American Rifles and Pistols.

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Old July 24th, 2016, 01:35 PM   #59
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There's a reason soviet era weapons have extractors that look like they could easily tear the head of the case off. As other posters have said Steel cases just do not extract as easily as brass.

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Old July 24th, 2016, 03:27 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amstel78 View Post
Well, back in WWII, the US was issuing steel-cased .45 to GIs. Steel-cased ammo has been around a long time.
Seen any lately? Kind of like the 1943 Penny.

US Made firearms/Cartridges are not made for Steel.
You can get away with a straight wall Cartridge,somewhat, but there is a reason Russian Rounds have the pronounced taper .
They have used steel for a long time. Tulammo is a low cost low quality Ammo that is flooding the US Market.
7.62 Nato and 5.56 are not made for it. Plenty of post will come from guys who shoot it with out a problem.
I shoot it out of my Ruger Mini-30. I get at least 3 FTF per 20 round Box.
Sure they go off the 2nd try but I would not trust it for anything but cheap Plinking.
I am not putting it in a $1600.00 Rifle or any other Gun I like.
It's the Gunner's $$$ .Spend it as you will.

If someone wants to shoot Steel out of their Rifle that is their Choice.
It's their money and their Gun.

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