M14 Forum

D308FAM

Various equipment for measuring and reducing total-indicator-runout (TIR) or "straightening" already loaded ammo is available in the US markets.
I'm planning to use some of this equipment to try to reduce TIR and possibly group sizes of Winchester Q3130 factory loaded ammunition.
I have not - yet - contacted Winchester and inquired into what this Q3130 was originally manufactured for use in...but suspect as of right now it might well be machine gun ammo that was never linked but instead got packed into boxes of 20 for retail sale. The crimps on the primer and case neck as well as the "7.62" on the case(s) certainly are consistent with made with intent for military usage.
I would like others on this forum to share their own opinions of and also any data they have on this ammo so I can decide not just on my own results but also on what is offered IF any TIR reduction efforts I make are likely to be worthwhile or not.
It would be of use to know what weapon(s) the Q3130 was fired from, the barrel length, and any summary chronograph data and the average group size and range it was shot at, and the ambient temperature, etc., if that is available.
......
I wonder if somewhere in the world someone is out of match grade ammo for their M14 (etc) and IF any basic TIR reduction methods that might be possible in the field might allow that someone to at least reduce fliers in any available "bulk FMJ" type ammo or even "pick good ones" from belted 7.62X51 ammo and thus remain at some level of combat effectiveness with their high grade 7.62X51 weapon and not have to just abandon it and resort to another less desirable cartridge choice.
...
Again, I'm interested in focusing on Winchester Q3130 in this thread.....

XXIV Corps

I tried the commercial Winchester Q3130 (White Box) ammunition years ago. My rifle didn't enjoy it that much on the rifle range. The cost of Q3130 has dropped 33-35% since it came out on the open market in late 2008 and early 2009, which can say a whole lot right there. I fired both '07 & '08. My info can be seen at My New Mexico Range Report, postings #172 & #179 from 2009. I don't rate the commercial WB very high compared with the military surplus ammunition on the open market for the last ten years. The Q3130 rates in-line with only third world counties that sell their military surplus ammunition on the open market. Just my opinion D308FAM.

Some of the other ammunition that I have test can be seen here.

My top scores with standard military surplus ammunition below.

1, M852 Lake City from 1991. Top score of 200-20X, on a SR-1 NRA standard 100 yard target, 1-20 round mag only with my NM M1A.
2, M118LR Lake City from 2003, 200-13X,
3, German DAG, surplus from 1993, 200-12X.
4, M118SB Lake City from 1963, 200-10X.
5, M852 Lake City from 1988, 200-10X.
6, Radway Green surplus from 1990, 200-10X.
7, M118SB Lake City from 1985, a 199-12X.
8, Australian MF surplus from 1966, 199-10X.
11, Belgium surplus from 1977, 198-10X.
12, Bosnian surplus from 2003, 198-10X.
13, Radway Green surplus from 1995, 198-8X
14, South African surplus from 1980, 198-6X.
15, Santa Barbra surplus from 1980, 197-14X.
16, Argentine surplus from 1983, 197-8X.
17, German DAG, surplus from 1976, 197-8X.
18, Austria surplus from 1980, 197-6X.
19, Greek surplus from 1980, 197-6X.
20, German MEN 41, surplus from 1969, 197-6X.
21, Singapore surplus from 1986, 196-11X.
22, Israeli surplus from 1974, 196-10X.
23, Australian ADI surplus from 1988, 196-8X.
24, Bosnian M118 surplus from 2003, 196-8X.
25, Serbia surplus from 2002, 196-6X.
26, Malaysian surplus from 1982, 195-6X.
27, Malaysian surplus from 1983, 194-9X.
28, Lithuanian surplus from 2003, 194-6X.
29, Serbia surplus from 1989, 194-2X.
30, Venezuelan surplus from 1989, 194-2X.
31, Denmark, surplus from 1993, 193-2X.
32, Canadian, surplus from 1970, 192-8X.
33, Chilean, surplus from 1976, 191-4X.
34, Portuguese m/963 surplus from 1978, 190-4X.
35, Austria surplus from 1978, 190-3X.
36, South African surplus from 1981, 189-1X.
37, Pakistan military surplus from 1979. Score of 188-4X.
38, Indonesian surplus from 1985, 187-1X.

I hope that this helps you some.

D308FAM

XXIV:
Thanks for the feedback!
I have just one case of this stuff and decided to use it for an evaluation of military spec FMJ and was hoping it would not be so good that TIR improvement efforts would not likely be possible.
Well, there's NO problem with the possiblity of improving the TIR of this ammo!
That's why I immediately suspected it might have been originally manufactured for military belt-fed automatic weapons as ammo like this would in my opinion definately tend to produce a cone of fire if expended via an automatic belt fed weapon.
The fact that it has it's projectile crimped means there's no real possibility of adjusting the projectile as trying to do so would both scar the projectile jacket and probably bend the neck of some combination of both so that particular technique is ruled out as an accuracy improvement technique on that basis alone.
The necks could certainly be adjusted to try to reduce the TIR's of both the necks and possibly also of the projectiles. I've done so on 60 rounds so far. Doing this reduced TIR's on almost all of the rounds but did not have a universal effect on reducing projectile TIR's....no matter where on the projectile I measured the TIR.
I was impressed by how uniform the cartridge case neck thicknesses were when I did multiple checks around the loaded cartridge case necks and have found no more than 0.001 TIR on any of the 60 rounds thus far measured. So I have every reason to suspect that the brass cases are probably of excellent uniformity in the lot I have been working with. The expended once fired brass probably is a good starting point for handloads....
I have done enough preliminary checks on the projectiles to suspect that there is probably some siginificant non-uniformity in the projectiles dimensions. I have NOT shot mil surplus ammo enough to be bold enough to raise the possiblity that this might be any worse than other stuff out there on the US or world market. But I can write now that the the kind of non-uniformity I have measured on the seated projectiles even AFTER the necks have been adjusted has been so great that I cannot but be shocked about the numbers I have been seeing on the gages.
I've got to diassemble some of these rounds and really measure the individual components before posting much more...but it was the really apparently very humble TIR figures I measured off of those seated projectiles at various points that got me to post here to see what others had actually been seeing out of various rifles on the targets and across their chronographs to get an idea of not only what the ammo was running at ballistically but also if what I have just measured myself might be just an aberration in an otherwise decently performing loading.
I seem to remember getting my sealed 200 round case from probably Midway some years back for about $9.99 a box. Apparently, there was a REASON why this was the "good deal" at that time.........but it does still have value as a test vehicle for this improvement project.
I'll end this post by just sharing that if I saw this kind of TIR anywhere on my own hand loaded ammo I would KNOW I'd screwed up somewhere and would just disassemble it and not even bother to try firing it.

XXIV Corps

Now you just hit the nail on the head D308FAM.

stoky

I got an average 2859 fps out of a 22" chrome lined barrel, with an STD of 14.5 out of Q3130.
Accuracy was sub match grade, but I really wasn't expecting it.
Accuracy was a little better with the cases reloaded (no extraordinary procedures) with 46 gr. of Win 748 at an average 2838 fps, STD of 13.
My rifle is more accurate with 147gr FMJs loaded about 150 fps slower than the Q3130 velocity.