M14 Forum

GreatPlainsRifleman · February 20th, 2012, 07:10 AM

RVPilot,

A few questions here, if you don't mind.

So if I send you deprimed, resized, but uncleaned brass, you'll both tumble them and anneal them for $.10 per round? But if I send you tumbled brass, you'll anneal them for $.05 per round? Is there any cleaning required after you anneal them?

Thanks!

TexIndian · February 20th, 2012, 07:45 AM

I wouldn't suggest sizing the brass until after it has been annealed.

GreatPlainsRifleman · February 20th, 2012, 08:17 AM

Thanks for the info, Tex. How many extra firings would you estimate that you get on average with annealing over not annealing?

RVPilot76 · February 20th, 2012, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatPlainsRifleman

RVPilot,

A few questions here, if you don't mind.

So if I send you deprimed, resized, but uncleaned brass, you'll both tumble them and anneal them for $.10 per round? But if I send you tumbled brass, you'll anneal them for $.05 per round? Is there any cleaning required after you anneal them?

Thanks!

You are correct. I would re-size after annealing though. Also the primer pockets won't be clean if you just use corncob or walnut. So if you hate cleaning primer pockets by hand, see if it's worth .05 to you for me to do it

Kevin

GreatPlainsRifleman · February 20th, 2012, 11:32 AM

Very cool.

How many firings do you believe annealing adds to case life?

RVPilot76 · February 20th, 2012, 11:46 AM

It depends on how much you are sizing your brass. If you are excessively sizing your brass, you will experience case head separation before you start splitting necks if you anneal. The big benefit of annealing is that it keeps neck tension CONSISTANT, which is important for accuracy. Properly annealed brass also sizes more consistently, which means you aren't chambering ammo which headspaces differently from case to case due to different springback rates in the shoulder.

Something to gnaw on,

Kevin

jbrooks · February 20th, 2012, 11:55 AM

EDIT: I posted this at almost the same time as Kevin, but some of the points are still valid...

I'm just guessing here, so please correct me if I'm wrong...

All factory brass and all US milsurp is annealed during manufacture. The commercial brass is just polished to get rid of the annealing color.

So assumeing the new or once-fired brass is already annealed, at what point ( number of reloads) after the new/surp ammo is first fired, should the cases be RE-annealed?

Following the RE-anneal, how many MORE successful reloadings can we expect?

Lwt's say for example, I fire 30-06 LC or HXP from my Garand. Let's say I get about 4 to 5 reloads before I experience some number of neck splits, when full-length resized with small base dies.

Now, let's say I RE-anneal the brass after say 3 reloadings... Do I now get say 4 more reloadings of the cases after they are firat RE-annealed?

As for my bolt guns, I can get quite a few more reloads from the brass before they begin to suffer some sort of neck splits.

On the other hand, at some point, the cases will begin to suffer incipient case head separation which is NOT helped by annealing in the first place.

So annealing seems to be a matter of options... spend 400 bucks or so on a machine that will be used relatively rarely, or pay the $0.05 per case. Unless one reloads a s$%t load of brass, I'm guessing the more cost-effective method is to pay the 5 cents. :) It will take 8,000 cases to reach $400.00 at that rate.

JWB

GreatPlainsRifleman · February 20th, 2012, 12:01 PM

Great posts by both of you! Really interesting stuff...

RVPilot76 · February 20th, 2012, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrooks

EDIT: I posted this at almost the same time as Kevin, but some of the points are still valid...

I'm just guessing here, so please correct me if I'm wrong...

All factory brass and all US milsurp is annealed during manufacture. The commercial brass is just polished to get rid of the annealing color. That is correct. However, I tried to reform some 284 Winchester to 7.5x55, and on the first firing I had splits in the neck and shoulder; so in some cases, it appears as though the brass is way too hard from the get-go. These are the cases:

So assumeing the new or once-fired brass is already annealed, at what point ( number of reloads) after the new/surp ammo is first fired, should the cases be RE-annealed? For best accuracy/longevity, the general consensus is after the second or third firing

Following the RE-anneal, how many MORE successful reloadings can we expect? Depends on how much you are working your brass in the sizing operation. One needs to separate the longevity question into two categories: neck and body/head.

Lwt's say for example, I fire 30-06 LC or HXP from my Garand. Let's say I get about 4 to 5 reloads before I experience some number of neck splits, when full-length resized with small base dies.

Now, let's say I RE-anneal the brass after say 3 reloadings... Do I now get say 4 more reloadings of the cases after they are firat RE-annealed? Annealing returns the brass to it's normalized, or stress free, condition. So yes, you could get 3 more reloadings (ballpark) out of the necks/shoulders before they would need to be re-annealed.

As for my bolt guns, I can get quite a few more reloads from the brass before they begin to suffer some sort of neck splits. You are correct, and that's because we normally don't size our brass as much in our bolt guns. Most of the time, you can typically neck size only for about 3-5 firings (dependent on how hard you are pushing your loads) before you need to size the body/shoulder due to the brass getting tight in the chamber. This brings up an excellent example of work hardening. Each time you fire the brass, you exercise the brass, and therefore harden it. Each time you do this, it gets just a little bit harder, and springs back just a little bit less each time. The harder the brass, the less it moves when resized. If you mix and match annealed/un-annealed brass, you get different tensions. This means that the necks are holding our bullets at different tensions, and therefore, produce different pressures. The same thing happens with the shoulders. If they are pushed back at different reference points, you have ammo that will headspace differently. This will also create differing pressures within the same ammo using the same case, and is not helping in the accuracy department.

On the other hand, at some point, the cases will begin to suffer incipient case head separation which is NOT helped by annealing in the first place. This is correct. You will prolong the longevity of the brass in the neck/shoulder area, and the brass longevity can be prolonged in the head area of the case by careful attention to die setup to size the case the minimum amount necessary for reliable chambering.

So annealing seems to be a matter of options...(longevity/accuracy) spend 400 bucks or so on a machine that will be used relatively rarely (in my case $550 total with torches, before the propane needed to run them), or pay the $0.05 per case. Unless one reloads a s$%t load of brass, I'm guessing the more cost-effective method is to pay the 5 cents. :) It will take 8,000 cases to reach $400.00 at that rate. In the case of the $550 purchase price (again, before propane), we are looking at 11,000 cases, plus your time.

JWB

Kevin

jbrooks · February 20th, 2012, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVPilot76

...Kevin

Thanks, Kevin, good, honest answers! I'd say your service is certainly worth it for those who need it. IMO, nothing compares to a nice, shiny annealed case. I think 10 cents each is a reasonable price for a good service.

Especially, IMO, for those who may have strange Euro or wildcat calibers, or who want to do case forming as you have shown.

JWB

TexIndian · February 20th, 2012, 03:07 PM

+1 on most of the above. There are some brass problems that have nothing to do with annealing - enlarged primer pockets due to higher pressures in softer brass alloys, excessive stretching near the case head due to headspace problems, thickening of the neck (or donuts) due to brass flow, etc. These other problems will eventually make your brass worthless on their own. But usually (and with proper control of these other factors), work hardening is the first problem that pops up. Benchrest shooters can sometimes wear out a barrel with only 20-30 cases because they control all these other factors and get great case life. But unfortunately the steps they take are not suitable for a general purpose rifle.

After 3-4 firings, depending on your gun, the neck/shoulder starts getting work hardened, meaning the brass is not as springy or malleable (at least in the areas where the brass has been worked the most). You start to get different sizes when coming out of your sizing dies than you did when the brass was new, your neck tension starts fluctuating case to case, etc. In general, your accuracy starts falling off and you start getting splits in the neck area.

The extent of the work hardening depends in part on your gun's chamber and the brass you use. A tightly-chambered bolt gun may allow .004 for neck expansion when the round is fired (.002 on each side) but a semi-auto may allow stretching of 2-3 times this amount. After this increased stretching and resizing, the brass fired in the semi-auto will show work-hardening much sooner than the brass fired in the bolt gun. A Lapua or LC case neck that is .015 thick will not stretch as far (and get resized as far) as a Win case that is .012 or a Nosler case that is .011. Any factor that increases stretching and sizing will speed up the work hardening.

ETA: Generally speaking, IMO annealing can double the life expectancy of your brass and more, depending on all the factors, and give you more dependable performance during its life. The last 500 pieces of Lapua .308 I bought cost upwards of $400. Add in all the time I spent prepping those cases and I'll pay for that annealer just on that one batch of brass.