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Pictures of Corrosion. inside MEN94 cases.

This is a discussion on Pictures of Corrosion. inside MEN94 cases. within the Ammunition forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Are we discussing only cosmetic issues or was there ever a blown/ruptured case with damage to the shooter /gun that you heared of? Wolf...


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Old January 29th, 2012, 08:51 AM   #61
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Are we discussing only cosmetic issues or was there ever a blown/ruptured case with damage to the shooter /gun that you heared of?
Wolf

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Old January 29th, 2012, 09:03 AM   #62
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I personally don't know of any. But I've only been buying surplus for about three years, and never paid any attention to it before.

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Old January 29th, 2012, 11:15 AM   #63
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Are we discussing only cosmetic issues or was there ever a blown/ruptured case with damage to the shooter /gun that you heared of?
Wolf

Let's face it, you are taking a chance if you use this ammo. What are your eyes or body parts worth to you??? What would a squib round do to your gun???At the least separate any questionable ammo, and pull it down for the components. There are reasons why every weapons/ammo manufacturer state disclaimers in thier brochures to only use only good/reliable ammo in thier firearms. Burning powder is meant to go down the barrel and out the muzzle. It was not meant to get blasted out the chamber and back in your face. Why do some people insist upon using/buying this stuff??? I'll tell you why, because it's 3-5 cents cheaper per round than any where else. Yet you have to go through all the ammo separate/polish it for use and/or repack it. So you end up throwing away say 10% of it. You sure didn't save much, did you? Careful reasearch here on the web will tell you to avoid this stuff. We all know of the problems of the Dag/Men 93-95 era, so why buy it? I'll stick by my Post #54, and send the ammo back to the seller. Enough said!!! dozier

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Old January 29th, 2012, 11:21 AM   #64
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Military surplus ammo is sold to the public because it does not meet some government standard; production, shipping or storage.

My guess is that this ammo experienced high temps or production problems. High temps can cause problems with the coatings that are put on the grains of powder. Of course production mistakes can create the same kind of issue. So I would bet that the grains of powder aren't properly coated with whatever chemical they are supposed to be coated with and it is either causing or allowing the powder to act like old corrosive powder. That would explain internal corrosion.

As I've said in other posts, this is why I don't trust milsurp, you never know what you will be getting. I understand the cost issue but we can't assume that it will be as good as new commercial ammo. In the case of this ammunition, there might be a couple of other problems. If I'm correct about the coatings being damaged then you could also have issues with pressure and velocity. Powder manufacturers use different kinds of coatings for specific reasons, some for retarding the burn rate, some for improving the dispensing qualities while loading it in to the cases, etc.

If the coating that controls burn rate is not to standard, than the powder's burn rate will not be as expected nor will it be predictable. I'm not saying anything with absolute certainty, I'm just pointing out that there is a possibility that this ammo will have other problems other than just being ugly.

Additionally, if the powder is acting like the old style corrosive powders than it could cause the same kind of damage in the barrel as the old corrosive powders.

I'm not saying that this stuff is dangerous because I have no proof that it is, but I don't think that I would trust using it for anything other than a source for pull-down components for my own hand loads.

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Old January 29th, 2012, 11:40 AM   #65
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Friction is always part of the systems function in an automatic weapon. Thats why on the recoil operated system of the HK G3 the chamber has canelures to reduce the friction. Extraction of the case started when there is still to much pressure inside. No issue for the roler locks. Gas operated weapons definately uses the friction between case and chamberwalls as an additional locking asset.
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Not to high jack the conversation but I just wanted to point out that there is a major difference in how the HK G3 and M1A rifles work. The G3 is a blowback system while the M1A is a gas operated system.

A blowback system works by the gases acting directly on the bolt to force it back while the gas operated system works directly on some mechanism, usually a piston, to make the rifle function.

The G3's chamber has flutes not canneleurs. The difference is that flutes are groves that go along the length of an object, the inside of the chamber in this case, while a cannelure goes around a circular object, some bullets have cannelures.

I agree that the flutes in a G3's chamber do reduce friction and they are designed to allow the bolt to blowback at the proper time after gasses have reduced to some degree but I just wanted to make sure that the terminologies were correct.

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Old January 29th, 2012, 11:43 AM   #66
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You are right dozer. Any savings are not worth the dangers. I always bought USGI for years. Then mostly RG. Then found this Men in sealed battle packs, and bought it for long term storage, a little over a year ago. Opened one of the packs a few days ago and was very unhappy. That is why I started this thread.

By the way, Radway Green works out to .45 cents per round delivered from SOG on my last order ($334.30 for 750 rounds shipped). Most of the time, Dag and Men is usually more, plus freight. (Plus corrosion?)

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Old January 29th, 2012, 12:15 PM   #67
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Not to high jack the conversation but I just wanted to point out that there is a major difference in how the HK G3 and M1A rifles work. The G3 is a blowback system while the M1A is a gas operated system.

A blowback system works by the gases acting directly on the bolt to force it back while the gas operated system works directly on some mechanism, usually a piston, to make the rifle function.

The G3's chamber has flutes not canneleurs. The difference is that flutes are groves that go along the length of an object, the inside of the chamber in this case, while a cannelure goes around a circular object, some bullets have cannelures.

I agree that the flutes in a G3's chamber do reduce friction and they are designed to allow the bolt to blowback at the proper time after gasses have reduced to some degree but I just wanted to make sure that the terminologies were correct.

While also not trying to hijack this thread either, it's just too good. I'm familar with the G-3 delayedblow back operation. I would think that the ammo in question would be more dangerous to use in this weapon than a M14 type because of this supposition. Suppose a round of the faulty ammo with the corrosion all the way through the case was chambered on the unsupported portion of the fluted chamber. Instead of the case mouth sealing and the case head pushing back on the bolt partial extraction occurs and the gas has a way of bypassing directly back into the shooters face. This ammo has no use in any semi-auto. Maybe I'm wrong here, but it's my 0.02cents worth.


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Old January 29th, 2012, 05:01 PM   #68
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Thanks for posting this information.
I'm in the process of sorting through my DAG ammo and taking the appropriate steps.

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Old January 29th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #69
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[quote]
"You are right dozer. Any savings are not worth the dangers. I always bought USGI for years. Then mostly RG. Then found this Men in sealed battle packs, and bought it for long term storage, a little over a year ago. Opened one of the packs a few days ago and was very unhappy. That is why I started this thread" [quote]

[quote]
"While also not trying to hijack this thread either, it's just too good. I'm familar with the G-3 delayedblow back operation. I would think that the ammo in question would be more dangerous to use in this weapon than a M14 type because of the supposition. Suppose a round of the faulty ammo with the corrosion all the way through the case was chambered on the unsupported portion of the fluted chamber. Instead of the case mouth sealing and the case head pushing back on the bolt partial extraction occurs and the gas has a way of bypassing directly back into the shooters face. This ammo has no use in any semi-auto. Maybe I'm wrong here, but it's my 0.02cents worth" [quote]

What do you think the worse case would be if a round with corrosion that penetrated the case were to be fired in a semi auto whether gas piston or delayed blowback? So far, it's been split cases when the round was fired. Has anyone heard of case head separation, damaged bolts or other components? This is ammunition that passed manufacturing inspection. The problem encountered was storage proceedure and materials utilized were less than ideal and essentially resulted in failure. We are not dealing with overload problems where the resultant effect would be extreme stress on the chamber, bolt or other operating mechanism involved where dangerous results could occur.

My thinking from what has been elaborated here is that green corrosion appears not to penetrate cases whereas pink corrosion has been shown to penetrate the cases and has become in contact with the powder. There has not been any information presented on the result of that contact. Because that is unknown, I would avoid using them.

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Old January 30th, 2012, 01:30 AM   #70
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Gases leaking through the case could etch or cut into the chamber, as seen on some bolt faces when primers leak. Just a guess.

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Old January 30th, 2012, 05:43 AM   #71
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My pink corrosion ammo will be discarded. I'm not willing to risk my M1A - or me! - on a 50 cent cartridge.

Based on my initial review of the ammo condition, even considering throwing away the pink stuff, it's still a steal.

But I would not buy more because of the effort involved in sorting & cleaning.

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Old January 30th, 2012, 10:57 AM   #72
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Quote:
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Most of the time, Dag and Men is usually more, plus freight. (Plus corrosion?)
No, the corrosion is free.

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Old January 30th, 2012, 12:09 PM   #73
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I purchased 1K of MEN a few months ago from Weidners. Upon receipt I opened one battle pack for inspection and found corrosion on about 25% of the ammo ranging from moderate (greenish) to severe (pinkish and pitted). I called them up and they took it back with no argument as if they were aware of the problem. The ammo was advertised as being battlepacks ideal for long term storage.

I can imagine what the ammo may have looked like after I'd stored it for ten or twenty years and then opened them up for use. I would encourage everyone to inpect and repack any milsurp that they might purchase.

I have bought several K's of DAG from Ammoman and it has been 100% clean. I lalso just bought 400 rounds of FN 7.62 X 51 from Wiedners which came bulk packed and was also in perfect external condition.

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Old January 30th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by mercman View Post
I purchased 1K of MEN a few months ago from Weidners. Upon receipt I opened one battle pack for inspection and found corrosion on about 25% of the ammo ranging from moderate (greenish) to severe (pinkish and pitted). I called them up and they took it back with no argument as if they were aware of the problem. The ammo was advertised as being battlepacks ideal for long term storage.
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That's the smart way to do it. You still have the shipping info and container with the ORD stickers. It's hard to return something that you've had for a few years. You could be accused that the corrosion was due to how you stored it. As you stated you really only have to open 1 BP, to get an idea of what's in the other 4.

I can imagine what the ammo may have looked like after I'd stored it for ten or twenty years and then opened them up for use. I would encourage everyone to inpect and repack any milsurp that they might purchase.



Yes and it would be especially true if this ammo is intended for serious use as some. If SHTF, I would want to bet my life on this stuff.

I have bought several K's of DAG from Ammoman and it has been 100% clean. I lalso just bought 400 rounds of FN 7.62 X 51 from Wiedners which came bulk packed and was also in perfect external condition.


Most reliable sellers will accept a return if the product is defective/unacceptable. Thier website usually have thier Return Policies stated, and it pays to do some "Due Diligence" prior to plunking down some $500 for the purchase. dozier

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Old January 31st, 2012, 02:47 AM   #75
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Here's a follow-up on my ammo inspection.

I went through 500 rounds of DAG from at least 2 separate lots.
328 rounds were perfect.
130 rounds were slightly tarnished and could be cleaned up with a Scotchbrite pad & 0000 steel wool.
42 rounds were pinked and pitted and will be discarded.
I can tell you that some lots are worse than others. Unfortunately, I don't have the lot numbers.

The punch line of this is that I had already gone through 100 rounds of DAG and never had a problem or even noticed any corrosion! There should have been at least a handful of tarnished or pitted rounds in that group of 100. It all fired fine - and was darn accurate!

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