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Pictures of Corrosion. inside MEN94 cases.

This is a discussion on Pictures of Corrosion. inside MEN94 cases. within the Ammunition forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Friction is always part of the systems function in an automatic weapon. Thats why on the recoil operated system of the HK G3 the chamber ...


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Old January 28th, 2012, 07:41 AM   #46
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Friction is always part of the systems function in an automatic weapon. Thats why on the recoil operated system of the HK G3 the chamber has canelures to reduce the friction. Extraction of the case started when there is still to much pressure inside. No issue for the roler locks. Gas operated weapons definately uses the friction between case and chamberwalls as an additional locking asset.
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Old January 28th, 2012, 07:43 AM   #47
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I think we have determined there is a problem with some of the DAG...how do we minimize the collateral damage?

so far from the comments the damage seems to be acid related...will applying a base solution of some type neutralize the acidic progress? ie salt water, baking soda solution...either by spraying or immersing? Are there any chemist types out there that can chip in here??
Just waste it in time. If this ammo was meant for long time storage why was it sold?
Wolf

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Old January 28th, 2012, 08:28 AM   #48
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Friction is always part of the systems function in an automatic weapon. Thats why on the recoil operated system of the HK G3 the chamber has canelures to reduce the friction. Extraction of the case started when there is still to much pressure inside. No issue for the roler locks. Gas operated weapons definately uses the friction between case and chamberwalls as an additional locking asset.
Wolf
izzat what they call the longitudinal ridges in the chamber?...same as what goes around the circumference of bullets?

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Old January 28th, 2012, 08:42 AM   #49
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Just waste it in time. If this ammo was meant for long time storage why was it sold?
Wolf
good question...well funny question......who ever the seller was probably thought that it was taking up good storage space, was not planning to use it in the near future and a good idea was to monitize it. It was a few cents around when produced and was recently sold at many many times that. The corrosion was possibly/probably known and the decision to sell it was with the assumption that there's gotta be a buyer for this stuff out there.

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Old January 28th, 2012, 08:44 AM   #50
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ok..assuming that both pink and green corrosion starts from the outside, have you any cases where the green corrosion has gone through the case wall.
I have not found any with green corrosion inside. I've pulled down quite a few, and this is what all of them have looked like so far.

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Old January 28th, 2012, 08:51 AM   #51
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If this ammo was meant for long time storage why was it sold? Wolf
It's corroded, any military government can't give it's troops bad ammunition to work with. So it's checked every year or so to see if it's 100% ready to go. Sold off as surplus ammunition if not. They are happy and we get our hands on some more military surplus ammunition to fire. Bottom line is, remember it's Surplus Military Ammunition only, not commercial.

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Old January 28th, 2012, 09:40 AM   #52
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As an CIMIC commisioned reserve soldier I can tell you the real situation. For the last 5 years we reservists of the German army don't get 7,62x51 ammo for training purposes or competitions because all the remaining 7,62 ammo goes to AFG or was sold as milsurp. And I presume, they don't issue corroded ammo to ISAF mission forces.
BTW, I recall when we found a crate of 2.000 rounds 7,62x39 ammo, wet, the bullets green corroded. I donated the crap to the Afghan National Police and and organized a shooting on our local PRT range. Their AK47 digested everything, not a single malfunction.
Wolf

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Old January 28th, 2012, 09:44 AM   #53
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It's corroded, any military government can't give it's troops bad ammunition to work with. So it's checked every year or so to see if it's 100% ready to go. Sold off as surplus ammunition if not. They are happy and we get our hands on some more military surplus ammunition to fire. Bottom line is, remember it's Surplus Military Ammunition only, not commercial.
ok...the DAG ammo showing up were 93-94...suggesting a shelf life of 15-ish years...

any suggestions as to how to arrest the corrosion of the ones that are judged to be salvagable?

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Old January 28th, 2012, 09:51 AM   #54
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First of all, I would like to thank m14nm for this OP. Great pics and as to why questionable corroded ammo should NOT be used. It's hard to tell how far the corrosion is in the brass just by looking at the outside of the case. Just polishing the outside of the case does not show how deep the damage is. Thanks to Rammac also for posts # 36 and 38. It shows why you should never ever apply oil to the outside of any ammo. The best recourse is to never buy surplus that is listed as slightly corroded ammo. If it's not listed as corroded in the ad, but it is; demand a return/refund from the seller. Tarnished or discolored ammo is OK to use and does not fall in this catagory. JMHO dozier

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Old January 28th, 2012, 10:06 AM   #55
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I have a question - If you don't clean the corrosion off of the case, will the case continue to corrode even though it's out of the individual boxes?
The short answer is yes....rust never sleeps.

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Old January 28th, 2012, 10:33 AM   #56
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On SOG's web site, they list Dag 94/95. But the box in the photo clearly says Men 93. Probably just a stock photo. But the picture also shows corrosion on one of the cases. Second one down on the right.

Maybe the Dag 94/95 is "very nice ammo!" as the ad states.





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Old January 28th, 2012, 01:29 PM   #57
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actually, sounds like two things going on....the green corrosion caused by the acidic paper and the pink corrosion from the "unclean" interior surface of the case reacting with the powder. From previous posts, green corrosion didn't cause perforation of the case walls but the pink exterior corrosion was "soft" and some time split when fired.
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Originally Posted by m14nm View Post
To show that the corrosion started on the outside of the cases, here's another photo showing the cases with a mirror behind them.
The center one shows the corrosion starting through to the inside, while the outer two, with a little heavier corrosion, has not.

[IMG][/IMG]
In this case, it appears the powder IS "OK" as manufactured, but only if the case isn't penetrated by the localized corrosion would I consider using it.

Perhaps a galvanic corrosion? "Green" would be a corroded copper product. "Pink" is probably the copper without the alloying elements left in the brass. Very weak! If there's a white dust inside the case, that could be corroded zinc.

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Old January 28th, 2012, 01:51 PM   #58
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ok...the DAG ammo showing up were 93-94...suggesting a shelf life of 15-ish years...

any suggestions as to how to arrest the corrosion of the ones that are judged to be salvagable?
I clean the corrosion off and inspect the metal underneath. I start with Scotchbrite pads and scrub the discoloration off. Polish it back up with OOOO steel wool. Get out a magnifier and look for pits. If tiny, dark pits remain, discard the round. You can tell if a great amount of material was removed by looking closely at the buffed area under a strong light. If it looks like the case is now out of round, discard it or check it out. Use a caliper and measure the case diameter over the buffed area...rotate and measure the same level over uncorroded sides and compute the amount of material you just removed. If that puts it under spec, discard the round.

I inspect any ammo over 10 years old. I have no idea under what conditions the ammo was packed under...or how long the individual boxes were exposed before being sealed into a battle pack.
Unless you can find the original contract requirements, you don't know if the requirement was for indefinite storage, 10 year storage, or simply protect the ammo from rain, hemicals, dust and mud during transportation from the factory to the troops. I have gotten green battle packs with tiny pinholes or tears, usually at a molded seam. I have found that from uncompromised battle packs, 20-40 rounds will have some degree of corrosion, usually where the box and case touch.

Cleaning up marginal looking rounds is time consuming. I will continue to buy surplus anyway....this gives me something to do on weekends/evenings when the weather is too bad to go out and play.

Be safe.

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Old January 28th, 2012, 05:33 PM   #59
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I clean the corrosion off and inspect the metal underneath. I start with Scotchbrite pads and scrub the discoloration off. Polish it back up with OOOO steel wool. Get out a magnifier and look for pits. If tiny, dark pits remain, discard the round. You can tell if a great amount of material was removed by looking closely at the buffed area under a strong light. If it looks like the case is now out of round, discard it or check it out. Use a caliper and measure the case diameter over the buffed area...rotate and measure the same level over uncorroded sides and compute the amount of material you just removed. If that puts it under spec, discard the round.

I inspect any ammo over 10 years old. I have no idea under what conditions the ammo was packed under...or how long the individual boxes were exposed before being sealed into a battle pack.
Unless you can find the original contract requirements, you don't know if the requirement was for indefinite storage, 10 year storage, or simply protect the ammo from rain, hemicals, dust and mud during transportation from the factory to the troops. I have gotten green battle packs with tiny pinholes or tears, usually at a molded seam. I have found that from uncompromised battle packs, 20-40 rounds will have some degree of corrosion, usually where the box and case touch.

Cleaning up marginal looking rounds is time consuming. I will continue to buy surplus anyway....this gives me something to do on weekends/evenings when the weather is too bad to go out and play.

Be safe.
I was just thinking that when the ammo is produced and packaged that the intention is to be indefinite because it is to survive not only age but different climate conditions and physical handling. And like the op from Hamberg indicated, the ammo is checked on a scheduled basis. I suspect that when the corrosion of the DAG munitions appeared, the manufacturer has since taken steps to avoid having it happen again...so that subsequent lots are packaged with improved materials and hopefully have a longer shelf life...
It's the economics of surplus ammunition that allows me to indulge in shooting. I couldn't do it if there was only factory available...

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Old January 29th, 2012, 08:04 AM   #60
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Thank you for taking the time to do this post.
You are doing us a great service and it is much appreciated.

Thanks again,
Glenn
Hear! Hear!

After finding spotty corrosion on my old Malay 5.56mm, I just can't bring myself to knowingly take a chance with DAG/MEN... It may be great stuff, but I'll never know.

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