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What I didn't know about ammo manufacturers

This is a discussion on What I didn't know about ammo manufacturers within the Ammunition forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; I found out about a year ago that Winchester white box was manufactured seconds. Then, yesterday after 4 or 5 FTFs and misfeeds, my choice ...


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Old September 25th, 2011, 08:07 AM   #1
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What I didn't know about ammo manufacturers

I found out about a year ago that Winchester white box was manufactured seconds. Then, yesterday after 4 or 5 FTFs and misfeeds, my choice of ammo was brought up. I took Magtech to the range yesterday. Scuttlebutt has it that Magtech is professional reloads. I didn't know that either. I had out-of-round shoulders and cases wrinkled just below the shoulder.

Is there any other info like that about other manufacturers that I should know?

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Old September 25th, 2011, 08:15 AM   #2
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Ammo

I didn't know that about Win white box.

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Old September 25th, 2011, 08:41 AM   #3
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According to Winchester white box ammo is not a factory second

Quote:
WHY DOES USA AMMUNITION COST LESS THAN OTHER BRANDS?

ANSWER:
USA ammunition is produced in calibers that have very high demand, and can therefore be made in large volumes. Due to these economical production runs, USA ammunition can offer the shooter an exceptional value at an unbeatable price.
http://www.winchester.com/learning-c...estion032.aspx

But according to other info that I've found there is a possibility that white box ammo is manufactured by PMC rather than the Winchester factory here in the U.S..

My belief is that white box being a second is urban myth but since Winchester says that they mass produce the ammo to keep the costs down, my guess is that they also use the least expensive manufacturing process, and that would include cheap foreign labor and out of country facilities.

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Old September 25th, 2011, 08:49 AM   #4
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MAGTECH is a private company that has existed since 1926. It is headquartered out of Brazil and privately owned at this time. It's original market was South America and Europe and has been controlled some of the major American ammunition companies in the past. They are not some some small American company that mass produces hand loads.

Here is their history from their own web site.
http://www.magtechammunition.com/sitepages/pid40.php
Quote:
The Magtech Story
For over 80 years, we have been dedicated to manufacturing and marketing top quality ammunition products throughout the world. The Magtech brand name is commercially recognized internationally and sold in more than 50 countries worldwide. In order to deliver technologically advanced products at an affordable price, we have established three key business operations across the globe that support Magtech’s prominent position amongst the foremost manufacturers of ammunition and firearms in the world.

1. To serve the United States market we established a central located facility in Minneapolis, Minnesota. This facility serves as the master distributorship and sales headquarters of Magtech products in the U.S.A. and it also home to the marketing department for the Magtech brand and image.

2. In order to attend the European market we created a Master Distribution Center in the free port of Hamburg, Germany. This facility, which is home to the European sales department, serves as supplier and logistic assistant to every Magtech distributor in Europe.

3. The headquarters is located in São Paulo, Brazil and our company, CBC - Companhia Brasileira de Cartuchos, is the largest military and commercial ammunition manufacturer in Latin America. CBC was founded in 1926, and from 1936 through 1979 Remington Arms of USA and ICI – Imperial Chemical Industries of England were the controlling shareholders. Today, the operation is a privately held company.

The main objective at Magtech is to provide shooting enthusiasts with absolutely reliable, totally affordable ammunition, round after round. Magtech ammunition is designed, constructed, and tested in one of the largest and most modern small arms manufacturing facilities in the world. We use only the highest quality materials, cutting-edge manufacturing techniques, and state-of-the-art equipment to deliver exceptional standards. Tough quality control standards along with tight manufacturing tolerances on most products in accordance with SAAMI, CIP, NATO, or US Mil. technical specifications ensure reliability, consistency, and safety.

Since 1926 much has changed in the industry and in the marketplace, but one thing that has not changed is our dedication and commitment to building the best ammunition and ammunition components. One of our major advantages is that our factory is fully vertically integrated with its own powder plant, primer plant, and the brass and bullet processing is completed in the ammunition plant to ensure the world’s finest ammunition. While other ammunition companies rely on outside vendors to supply various components, Magtech houses all of these processes inside our ISO 9001 Quality System Certified Facility.

Due to the high quality and consequent reliability, our products are exported to more than 50 countries around the world. This international credibility is very rewarding as more than 20 national police agencies in Europe, Asia, and Latin America depend on Magtech ammunition to serve and protect.

To reach our goal of making the best ammunition, we make a habit of listening to shooters to better understand how, when, and why our products are used. Magtech has used the experience we have gained by working closely with law enforcement personnel to develop unique products for the police and competition markets, along with the design of lead-free products for indoor shooting. From hunters to target shooters, cowboy action enthusiasts to reloaders, word is spreading fast about high quality Magtech ammunition.

Please continue to share your suggestions, shooting experiences, ideas, and questions with us. If, for any reason, our products or service do not meet our high standards or yours, we want you to tell us. Only then may we accomplish our goal of being the best.

Thanks for choosing Magtech Ammunition.

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Old September 25th, 2011, 03:02 PM   #5
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ive actually had FTLIB with winchester white box 9mm. The round was poorly sized and would not feed all the way into the chamber. I had to tap it out with a section of cleaning rod. It stopped about 3/4 way in. This happened 2 or 3 times in that one particular box. It was out of my 92FS which eats everything very well. This has never happened to be before, and ive fired thousands of rounds of WWB.

Another tidbit- i bought some cheap federal wally world 9mm and put that through my 92FS as well... let me just say that this stuff was ALL OVER THE PLACE. I mean, normally i can pop clays at around 50M with this sidearm- this stuff was like an MG beaten zone at 1500M, all over the berm. My buddy who runs the range tried it in his styre 9mm and it did the same thing. No noticeable recoil or noise, im wondering if it was a sizing issue or something was out of spec.

Both bought at wal-mart BTW. I wonder sometimes if there is something to this factory-seconds myth, especially for places like walmart that force the sellers into selling for lower prices or whatnot?

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Old September 25th, 2011, 03:42 PM   #6
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Actually, Magtech is NOT reloads it's just really soft brass loaded ammo from Brazil, it ain't great for reloading either as the primer holes are off center more often than not. Souces for Winchester white box vary, mostly it's loaded over seas from the lowest bidder to keep the cost down over domestically loading it themselves. Same with some of the lower end plinking fodder from remington.Federal american eagle with the exception of the XM rounds are actually Mexican Eagle.

Just the way it goes these days.

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Old September 25th, 2011, 04:39 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Gearjammer View Post
Actually,.... it's just really soft brass loaded ammo from Brazil,
I will second that. The side of the case looked like it was about to cave in. I thought to myself how I could have loaded it and not noticed when I put it in. It was one that wouldn't chamber all the way.

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Old September 25th, 2011, 04:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsinaname181 View Post

....places like walmart that force the sellers into selling for lower prices or whatnot?
Now that is a very likely reality. However I don't shop at Wal-Mart... I bought all the Magtech from Midway. Maybe that's no different. I'd like to think so, but...

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Old September 25th, 2011, 07:09 PM   #9
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Souces for Winchester white box vary, mostly it's loaded over seas from the lowest bidder to keep the cost down over domestically loading it themselves
No doubt the components are the cheapest possible, the end flap of the 45ACP packs I have state Made in the USA.


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Old September 25th, 2011, 08:32 PM   #10
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Just the cardboard box was made in the USA. LOL! Just kidding.

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Old September 26th, 2011, 03:46 AM   #11
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"Mass produced" may imply "no quality control", and that appears to be the case after I read some of the comments.

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Old September 26th, 2011, 05:21 AM   #12
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No doubt the components are the cheapest possible, the end flap of the 45ACP packs I have state Made in the USA.
Some is, some isn't. I had some WWB that didn't state 'Made in USA'. I still think some of the components are sourced from outside, like the brass.

I have some older Winchester 45 brass, and some newer WWB 45 brass I scrounged from the range, the headstamp text font is different and the rim profile is different... obviously made on a different set of machines. I kind of wonder if the brass isn't made in Serbia or somewhere like that, who knows where the bullets are made.

Magtech? I have not had very good luck with either their loaded ammunition or their brass or components, and avoid it.

*SIGH* Welcome to the global economy...

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Old September 26th, 2011, 06:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearjammer View Post
Actually, Magtech is NOT reloads it's just really soft brass loaded ammo from Brazil, it ain't great for reloading either as the primer holes are off center more often than not. Souces for Winchester white box vary, mostly it's loaded over seas from the lowest bidder to keep the cost down over domestically loading it themselves. Same with some of the lower end plinking fodder from remington.Federal american eagle with the exception of the XM rounds are actually Mexican Eagle.

Just the way it goes these days.
My dad recently bought some Magtech .223 from a local gunshop and the brass was all USGI LC brass. The gun shop employee told him it was a quality factory reloaded ammo with good brass.

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Old September 26th, 2011, 08:15 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmcfalls View Post
The gun shop employee told him it was a quality factory reloaded ammo with good brass.
If you decode the marketing language that means that the shop got a good deal on the ammo and they have to move it. They will call it whatever makes them sound like a deal.

MAGTECH uses anything for reloading components as long as they can get a good deal on it. They are a Brazilian company and they do not have to meet the same standards as American manufacturers do. They also don't have to pay their employees very much, which makes wonder just how concerned those workers are about doing their jobs correctly.

MAGTECH is either buying used military brass or they are getting military surplus, there are no other ways of getting LC brass. You can get LC the exact same way so why pay some foreign country to load the brass for you?

Cash out of your pocket is important and I understand people wanting ammo for a cheap price but I suspect that hand loading is far cheaper and has better quality control in the long run.

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Old September 26th, 2011, 08:24 AM   #15
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while i dont work for winchester, i do work for another ammunition manufacturer, and i will emphatically state you are not buying seconds, nor are any of the box stores getting special lower quality ammo. bad lots of ammo do occur, but you need to realize most ammo you buy is made on equipment that is older than most on this forum, and its is set up and run by people.

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