7.62 X 51 cartridge vs. .308 Winchester: the differences!

M14E2

5,047 posts · Joined 2004

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#2 · Jul 3, 2011

62,000 maybe max for commercial .308 Winchester ammo , but I believe industry 'standard' pressure is held to 52,000 or 55,000.

BUT , ya also need to use caution when using some 7.62x51 NATO in certain .308 Win chambered semi-auto rifles too. My DPMS LR-308 came with a warning about the bullet ogive on some surplus ammo might contact the shorter leade in commercial chamberings , especially match chambers , leading to out of battery firings.

 

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Dacotua

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#3 · Jul 3, 2011

If you look at the way they measure pressure on a 7.62x51 vs the .308 Win via a chart, its apples and oranges. That is, they are not measured in the same manner. SAAMI is measured at the neck and NATO is measured in the wide part of the chamber. This alone can account for a very significant difference, several tens of thousands of pounds, between the two. Measured similarly, the pressure of a 7.62 NATO round is almost identical to that of a .308 Win. round.

 

GardenValley

7,107 posts · Joined 2011

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#4 · Jul 3, 2011

Unfortunate this myth is repeated ....

The difference between the chamber pressures is because the readings were established using two different methods of measurement. It truly is comparing apples to oranges. If the same measurement method is used for both, the difference is minimal.

 

RAMMAC

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#5 · Jul 3, 2011

This discussion pops up all the time and many have their own view of what is true and what isn't, but just to show how mixed up the data is let me quote the Army's cartridge data for the 7.62mm ammo that is used in the M14.

Army Ammunition Data Sheets, Small Caliber Ammunition, FSC 1305, dated April 1994.

M118

• Use: Rifles, 7.62mm, M14, M21, M24, and M40A1. The
  cartridge is intended and specifically prepared for use in
  high accuracy weapons.
• OAL - 2.83"
• Bullet - 172 grain
• Powder - IMR 4895 and WC 846
• Powder Charge Weight - 44 grains
• Chamber pressure ....... 50,000 psi
• Velocity ....................... 2640 fps

M852

• Use: Rifle, 7.62 mm, M14, NATIONAL MATCH. The
  cartridge is intended and specifically prepared for use in
  those weapons designated as competitive rifles and also
  for marksmanship training. The cartridge is not for combat use.
• OAL - 2.83"
• Bullet - 168 grain
• Powder - IMR 4895
• Powder Charge Weight - 42 grains
• Chamber pressure ....... 50,000 psi
• Velocity ....................... 2550 fps

Look at the chamber pressures, the Army says that they are the same. So you take two cartridges that have the same OAL, different bullet weights, different powder charge weights, and different muzzle velocities, but you list their chamber pressures as being the same? Not very likely.

I ran the numbers through my copy of QuickLOAD (internal ballistics software) and these are the chamber pressures and muzzle velocities that the software predicts.

M118 (using IMR 4895)

• Chamber Pressure - 69372 PSI
• Muzzle Velocity - 2778 FPS

M852

• Chamber Pressure - 49088 PSI
• Muzzle Velocity - 2575 FPS

Now some will dismiss my numbers because they were calculated by computer software, but notice how close the numbers are for the M852 cartridge. In addition I know from personal experience that my field tests give me numbers that are pretty close to what the software predicts. Regardless, the Army says that they get the same pressure with these two different bullet weights and muzzle velocities and I'm sure that most of us will agree that that's pretty much impossible. On the other hand, if you accept that QuickLOAD predicted the M852 numbers accurately, then you have to accept that the M118 numbers produced by QuickLOAD are pretty close to what you would find in field tests. In which case, the M118 cartridge is producing chamber pressures upwards of 70000 PSI.

A lot of people will call BS on that chamber pressure because they have been told that the M14 platform was designed to withstand pressures of no more than 50000 PSI. Well think about the following;

• SAAMI standards specify that the proof load for a .308 Win produce 74500 PSI
• The M1A, as manufactured by Springfield Armory, must meet the SAAMI standards for firearms due to liability issues.
• Therefor, the M1A is proof tested up to 74500 PSI.

Taking that info in to consideration, it would not be impossible then for the pressure of the M118 cartridge to be as high as QuickLOAD predicts.

In addition, the military mislabeled the units of measure for chamber pressure for many years (see the conversation at this link

http://m14forum.com/ammunition/88098-7-62x51-real-facts.html

They used the term PSI when in fact they were using the CUP testing method, that method results in CUP units not PSI. CUP values are always lower than actual PSI values. I have not been able to find updated chamber pressure data since they changed their testing process to using a pressure sensor (true PSI values).

As a point of interest, I checked the numbers for the military's standard M80 ball ammo. QuickLOAD does not have a listing for the powder (WC 846) or bullet (146 grain FMJ) used in the military cartridge so I used the same powder charge weight (46 grains) with BL-C2 which is reputed to be a close match and a Winchester 147 grain FMJ bullet. The resulting numbers are;

M80 Ball equivalent

• Chamber Pressure
  Army - 50000 PSI​
  QuickLOAD - 53490 PSI​
• Muzzle Velocity
  Army - 2750 FPS 78 feet from the muzzle (they misprinted the speed and listed it as 27501 FPS, I assume it should be 2750.1 FPS)​
  QuickLOAD - 2798 FPS (QuickLOAD predicts the actual velocity at the muzzle, not 78 feet away and that, I'm sure, explains the speed difference)​

As for what my preferences are, I don't like to use loads that produce anything over 54000 PSI.

 

MesaRifle Discussion starter

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#6 · Jul 4, 2011 (Edited)

Great stuff, RAMMAC! I sure wish that I could run that QuikLoad Ballistic software on my Mac. And they tell us that MACs are Sooooo much more sophisticated (well, yeah, they are, but why no ballistic software then?).

Anyhow, yes, that info on chamber pressures seems to be bunk as regards commercial .308 ammo running 62k psi. Wow! That's right up there with Weatherby et al @ 65k, and the MkV Wby action is hugely stronger than the M14's!

I suspect a massive and significant variation in the measurement standards used, possibly even across different teams in the same military ballistics lab, or in it's interpretation by Staff gunnery Sgt. Smith vs SSgt. Jones! Not to mention the calibration of the test equipment and so on. Otherwise, that first 20 rounds I ran through my rifle, Federal Premium .308, in 180 gr, would have popped the whole caboodle wide open!

Interesting that there's similar such listed diffs. in the .223, 5.56 and .223 Wylde. In theory, all work in each other's chambers, but dimensions & pressures are all different.

 

MesaRifle Discussion starter

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#7 · Jul 4, 2011

Great stuff, RAMMAC! I sure wish that I could run that QuikLoad Ballistic software on my Mac. And they tell us that MACs are Sooooo much more sophisticated (well, yeah, they are, but why no ballistic software then?).

Anyhow, yes, that info on chamber pressures seems to be bunk as regards commercial .308 ammo running 62k psi. Wow! That's right up there with Weatherby et al @ 65k, and the MkV Wby action is hugely stronger than the M14's!

I suspect a massive and significant variation in the measurement standards used, possibly even across different teams in the same military ballistics lab, or in it's interpretation by Staff gunnery Sgt. Smith vs SSgt. Jones! Not to mention the calibration of the test equipment and so on. Otherwise, that first 20 rounds I ran through my rifle, Federal Premium .308, in 180 gr, would have popped the whole caboodle wide open!

Interesting that there's similar such listed diffs. in the .223, 5.56 and .223 Wylde. In theory, all work in each other's chambers, but dimensions & pressures are all different.

 

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Larry Gibson

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#8 · Jul 5, 2011 (Edited)

Oh my gosh, here we go again.......

The psi figures "quoted" are apples and oranges. The 62,000 psi is the current figure for SAAMI based on piezo transducers pressures. The 50,000 psi quoted for the 7.62 NATO is based on the C.U.P. (Copper Unit Pressure) measuring systems. Those are total different and a comparison is totally meaningless.

The actual psi maximum average working pressures (MAPs or PMAPs) for both the 7.62 NATO and the .308W are pretty close to the same; 50,000 C.U.P. or 62,000 psi. The military is now also using a case mouth transducer to measure the psi of 7.62 NATO and 5.56 NATO BTW. I have been measuring the pressure of various lots of US and foreign 7.62 NATO and commercial .308W ammunition in 3 test rifles using an Oehler M43 for several years now. I can show you 7.62 NATO ammunition that is higher that .308W ammunition and visa versa all tested in the same test rifle on the same day under the same conditions. Point is both cartridges are close to the same and it just depends on the specific type and lot of ammunition as to which will have a higher psi. Also don't assume that because the MAP is listed at 62,000 psi that all such ammunition is loaded to that....it isn't. I've yet to find a commercial .308W or a 7.62 NATO MAP that hits that. A couple of each have hit 60,000 psi but most quality .308W/7.62 NATO that meets spec is in the 56 -58,000 psi range. The loading criteria is based on a velocity specification (+/- a lot more fps than you would believe) that stays within SAAMI psi specs (more than just the MAP BTW) and gives adequate "accuracy".

The measured "difference" between the two cartridges is most often in the velocity. The .308W many times will have a higher velocity for a given bullet weight (say 150 vs 147) than the 7.62 NATO. Many assume the higher velocity means a higher psi. That is not the case most often. It means a slower powder was used in the .308W as the time/pressure curves demonstrate. The cartridge case external specifications are the same also. Ever try to buy a set of "7.62 NATO" loading dies? No, probably because they are all .308W dies because the two cartridges are the same externally. Yes milsurp chambers are more generous (need to be to ensure reliable functioning) than commercial .308W but comparing chambers and concluding the cartridges are there for different is an erroneous conclusion.

With bullets of 150 - 165 gr in the .308W there isn't enough of a slower time pressure to harm the M1A/M14. There is just an increase of 75 -100 fps or so velocity. The gas port psi is about the same with those .308W loads as with M118SB or M118LR ammunition.

Newer .308W ammunition of "super performance" or "extended range" have specially blended and much slower powders and should not be used in gas guns. This because of a much slower time/pressure curve that puts too much psi at the gas port. It is not because of increased MAPs in the .308W. Those types of ammunition have MAPs that are like any other .308W commercial ammunition that are within SAAMI specs.

Bottom line is; before going to different sites and cross referencing the "data" one should be aware of how the "data" was obtained. Most often, in the case of .308W vs 7.62 NATO, the "data" was obtained by totally different methods and is meaningless in comparison.


Larry Gibson

 

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Larry Gibson

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#10 · Jul 6, 2011 (Edited)

As I stated previously it varies lot to lot. Test results here are with a 24" barrel with 10" twist. Additional testing in 12 and 14" twist barrels generally results in respectively lower psi while velocities stay pretty much the same. The time/pressure curve is slower as the twist decreases. Note also

Three lots of of M118 White Box run between 56,400 and 59,700 psi(M43).

5 lots of M118SB ran 56,700 to 61,700 psi(M43)
Note; one lot of LC91 (6th) ran 63,300 psi(M43) and produced 125+ fps over the other 5 lots. Accuracy was also very poor.

4 lots of M118LR (one with ball powder) ran 57,900 to 61,200 psi(M43).

Additionally for comparison in this thread to demonstrate the fact that a statement such as "the .308W is higher pressure loaded than 7.62 NATO" is not a correct statement.;

Winchester 150 gr PP: 55,200 psi(M43)
Remington 150 gr CL: 56,100 psi(M43)
Federal 150gr PS: 55,500 psi(M43)
Winchester 180 gr ST; 56,900 psi(43)

BTW
Numerous lots of US and foreign M80 7.62 NATO measured psi fall above and below most factory .308W ammunition. Also as I previously mentioned some lots of .308W factory ammunition are right up close to the MAP of 62,000 psi with M118.

Additional M80 (US and foreign) tested on the same day, consecutively, and under the same conditions;

IVI70: 53,900 psi(M43)
LC74; 52,100 psi(M43)
WRA69: 60,400 psi(M43)
LC74 (steel jacketed bullets); 58,200 psi(M43)
LC87; 64,800 psiM43) (yup, that one is right up there and is the highest 7.62 NATO or factory .308W I have recorded)
LC90; 59,700 psi(M43)
IVI70; 58,000 psi(M43)
Cavim 91; 53,100 psi(M43)
Chinese 61 92; 45,700 psi(M43) (100+ fps less than US M80)
OFV82; 42,600 psi(M43) (200+ fps less than US M80)
MAL 11-83; 52,200 psi(M43)
Wolf M80; 45,800 psi(M43) (100+ fps less than US M80)
FNM 80-49; 50,900 psi(M43)

As you can plainly see there is no "rule" as to which cartridge (.308W or 7.62 NATO) has the higher psi. You just puts your money down and takes what you get.........


Larry Gibson

 

RAMMAC

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#12 · Jul 6, 2011

So it seems that, in general, slightly higher pressures are created by U.S. made commercial ammo but only by a couple of thousand PSI (rough averages based on Larry's testing; 55,600 PSI commercial vs. 53,600 PSI military surplus). But, the surplus ammo swings wildly (a range of at least 22,200 PSI with the tested ball ammo) while the commercially equivalent ammo is pretty consistent and probably doesn't vary by more than a 1000 PSI within any single bullet weight/load combination.

So after all is said and done it means that the vast majority of the ammo used in these rifles exceeds the claimed 50,000 PSI max pressure by at least 3,000 PSI in most cases, unless you hand load all of your ammunition. And even then we don't know exactly what the pressures are, I wish I could test some of my hand loads to see if they are producing the pressures that I think they are. But I will say this, this data makes me feel more confident in the numbers that QuickLOAD is producing.

garbage in = garbage out.

 

L

Larry Gibson

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#13 · Jul 7, 2011

RAMMAC

So it seems that, in general, slightly higher pressures are created by U.S. made commercial ammo but only by a couple of thousand PSI (rough averages based on Larry's testing; 55,600 PSI commercial vs. 53,600 PSI military surplus). But, the surplus ammo swings wildly (a range of at least 22,200 PSI with the tested ball ammo) while the commercially equivalent ammo is pretty consistent and probably doesn't vary by more than a 1000 PSI within any single bullet weight/load combination.

I don't think it's valid to average the velocities given for a comparison. I only list a small sample of .308W to demonstrate a point. As mentioned I can show you commercial .308W ammunition that is right up ther at 61,000+ psi. I can also show you some that is lower psi than the listed examples. The point was that some of it falls in the 56 -58,000 psi range which is lower than the M118 examples given. Also the psi extreme spread for the 10 shot test strings actually varied varied from 3,300 psi to 7, 900 psi, not the 1,000 psi you're assuming.

So after all is said and done it means that the vast majority of the ammo used in these rifles exceeds the claimed 50,000 PSI max pressure by at least 3,000 PSI in most cases, unless you hand load all of your ammunition.

Unfortunately your using C.U.P. psi figures and comparing them to the psi obtained by electronic means (piezo transducer or strain gauge). The two are not the same. The "50,000 psi" you refer to is the C.U.P. method using copper cruchers. The MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the .308W/7.62 NATO is 62,000 psi as measured by piezo transducers or strain gauges.

garbage in = garbage out.

In this case it is garbage out only if we mistakenly compare garbage in C.U.P. derived psi's with piezo transducer/strain gauge derived psi's. Use the correct figure of 62,000 psi for the comparison of the data I gave and you'll see that all but 2 loads were under that listed MAP.

Larry Gibson

 

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NE450N02

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#16 · Jul 7, 2011

All I can say is, since the mid 1970's I have fired THOUSANDS of 308 and 7.62x51 rounds through several dozens of 308, and 7.62x51 rifles, of US and overseas makers with NO PROBLEMS.

I have NEVER had any issues shooting one "kind" of ammo in the other "kind" of rifle...

I have shot a fair amount of Hornady Light Magnum and Federal High Energy 308 ammo in Bolt rifles, and it is it good stuff, but as Larry Gibson states, I would not use it in a gas gun.

This includes shooting 308 ammo in Garand's, M14's, FN-FAL's, H&K 91's, Galil's and Valmets. NO problems.

I have shot US and overseas NATO 7.62x51, as well as some overseas 7.62x51 not NATO marked in dozens of commercial 308 rifles. No Problems.

Personally I consider 308 and 7.62x51 ammo as the same "thing"...

 

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Larry Gibson

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#17 · Jul 8, 2011

RAMMAC

Not gloating at all, just wanting to make sure we're singing on the same page.....obviously we are.

Where are you located in "western US"? Possible we might link up and do some testing.

Larry Gibson

 

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BigBill

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#19 · Jul 8, 2011

Good post its not beating a dead horse its a refresher so we remember.

With purchasing new 308win ammo for my surplups i stay well under 168grs i normally only shoot the 150gr soft point if i take it out hunting. Its all about the chamber pressures and the peak time with the chamber pressures. The heavier bullets take a split second longer time to move out of the case do to the heavier bullet thus its a higher pressure along with a longer peak time too. I do not use the 308win hunting rounds heavier than 150gr but would personally stay under 165gr /168gr if you needed a heavier bullet for bear hunting. The lighter weight bullet moves faster out of the brass so there is less pressure peak timing. I wouldn't reload any stout rounds for the lighter bullets too.

If the semi -auto rifle your using has an adjustable gas system by all means adjust it to the ammo your shooting. I'm very surprised that there are a lot of the semi auto's with no adjustable gas valve or a gas metering system that we can adjust.

I have run into two different adjustable gas systems so far too. One system the gas valve adjusts the gas pressure the system gets to operate it, so the more its closed the better. (egyptian hakim/egyptian rasheed/svt40 tokarev, ect) While the other system the gas valve is an exhaust port so it actually blows off and exhausts the unneeded gas.(FN49, ect.) So thye more open the port is the better. I say this because i have seen some mix up on how to adjust there gas system. A few years back there were many so called out of battery accidents. I figured out if the gas valve is too far open on that one type of system the bolt carrier can pull away from the breech allowing the 50k+ or- gas pressure to hit the shooter in the face making him think its an out of battery firing. I also notice this can happen before the bullet leaves the barrel and actually the bullet just passes the gas port. Its just a split second of bad timing on while the breech pressure is peaked, the bullet just passes the gas port and the brass has shrunk a little so the bolt can pull it back. A visual inspection of the fired brass case can tell the story on the rim being ripped of bent. This is when the brass is still swelled up/expanded as its fires. I've seen the semi autos react both ways in the so called out of battery firings. This matter only gets worse if were using the gun powder with the wrong burn rate too. All hexx can break loose too. I've seen stocks cracked in half, mags blown out and people hurt. It pays to know your weapon and how it adjusts and operates. Floating firing pins and soft primers is another disaster just waiting to happen. I use the cci nato primers in all my semi autos and my military bolts actions that use the same ammo too so nothing gets mixed up.

Sorry if i bored anyone its just food for thought and to be safe. Safety first we don't get a second chance sometimes. Bill

 

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rickyleru

17 posts · Joined 2011

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#20 · Sep 20, 2011

Thanks Guys, for the great ammo 'comparo' - very helpful info!
joe

 

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NE450N02

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#21 · Sep 22, 2011

Gentlemen, I do not know Larry Gibson in person, we have never met.

However on another forum, some "stuff" about shooting 308/7.62 ammo in M1-A's/M14's was discussed, and from his posts there, [in what I have personally experienced], I can say HE does know what he is talking about.

I would rate his info as Court approved expert statis...

He is a Military High Power Match shooter with a LOT of experience.

 

Scorp

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#23 · Sep 27, 2011

WOW, bRaIN FreEze, too much tech for my brain. bottom line can I shoot .308 168gr match or 7.62x51 M118LR out of my SA M21 born in 1995 and headspaced to 1.6315? with out any problems?

 

MesaRifle Discussion starter

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#24 · Oct 1, 2011

Yes.

 

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Dangerousdan

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#25 · Oct 13, 2011

I have to agree with BIG BILL It doesn't hurt to review this information when ever your purchasing ammo for a new build. My$.02

 

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BigBill

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#26 · Oct 14, 2011

Now with bullet weights the lighter bullet moves faster out of the case when fired so there is less breech pressure. The lighter bullet moves sooner as the round is fired. With the heavier bullet it has a higher breech pressure because the heavier bullet takes a longer time to move out of the brass case. There is a higher peak breech pressure. This is why some semi auto's don't like the heavier bullets. We need to becareful all the way around, if your not sure ask here.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but i'm aware whats going on. Besafe, enjoy, Bill

BTW;
Food for thought; If you gunhas an adjustable gas system adjust it to the ammo your shooting. The less gas the system see's to operate it the better. I've seen certain military semi auto's were the bolt carrier pulls out the fired case before the bullet leaves the barrel thus making it look and feel like an out of battery firing when its not. The shooter gets hit in the face with the 50k of breech pressure. I've seen guns blown out thru the mag wells and split stocks happen because of this. Some military semi auto's with adjustable gas systems need to be adjusted to the ammo were using atht thats the name of that tune. Do it right or take a chance do you feel lucky?

 

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Pbmaster2k89

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#27 · Oct 14, 2011

R u tryin to say 308 Winchester has higher pressure and velocity than 7.62 NATO? Cause I could have sworn it was the other way around.

 

jake2far

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#28 · Oct 14, 2011

Interesting read

Something else to challenge the imagination.
http://how-i-did-it.org/762vs308/chamber.html

Enjoy


Jim

 

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Veritas

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#29 · Oct 14, 2011

Wow! Thanks! I had no idea it was much like the 5.56 - .223 differences!

 

RAMMAC

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#30 · Oct 15, 2011

How did this conversation come full circle and conclude that there is a major difference between the ammunition pressures of commercial .308 Win and military 7.62mm ammo?

Do what you feel most comfortable with but don't promote this false claim that there are dangerous differences between the commercial .308 and the military 7.62; it's just bad information that confuses people about what is safe and what isn't.

 

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Larry Gibson

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#31 · Oct 15, 2011

Bill

Here's the very problem with that site and several others just like it that say basically the same thing;

'The most commonly-cited explanation asserts that .308 Winchester operates at higher pressure than 7.62x51mm. SAAMI specifies a maximum average pressure for .308 Winchester of 62,000 PSI, but the oft-cited pressure of 7.62.51mm is 50,000 PSI--almost 25% less."

The problem being that the "psi" refered to is with piezo transducer measurement for the .308W and for C.U.P. (Copper Unit Pressure) for the 7.62 NATO. If you use the same pressure measuring method for both then they are the same; either 60,000 psi for a piezo transducer measurement or 50,000 C.U.P. for the Copper Unit Pressure method.. Comparing piezo transducer psi's to C.U.P. psi's is comparing apples to oranges. There is no correlation between the two as one site would have you believe either BTW.

Also comparing velocities obtained out of different length barrels some of which are production barrels and some of which are test barrels is a futile process.

Also you should quantify your statement;

"Now with bullet weights the lighter bullet moves faster out of the case when fired so there is less breech pressure. The lighter bullet moves sooner as the round is fired. With the heavier bullet it has a higher breech pressure because the heavier bullet takes a longer time to move out of the brass case. There is a higher peak breech pressure. This is why some semi auto's don't like the heavier bullets."

with your premiss only would apply if the same powder and same charge of that powder were used for both the light weight and heavy weight bullets. If not quantified it is all to easy to demonstrate where the heavier bullet, with a slower burning powder, will actually have less "breach pressure".

Larry Gibson

 

jake2far

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#32 · Oct 15, 2011

Was wondering.

Larry, I found this and was wondering if you have any experience with this double pressure spike?

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/barrel.htm


Jim