Question about random flyers?! Is it me, the reloads or the gun? - M14 Forum

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Question about random flyers?! Is it me, the reloads or the gun?

This is a discussion on Question about random flyers?! Is it me, the reloads or the gun? within the Accuracy forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; This was my first time shooting my recent purchased Scout Squad in a Sage chassis, Fulton Armory national match trigger modification, Fortis muzzle brake and ...


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Old March 13th, 2017, 05:31 AM   #1
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Question about random flyers?! Is it me, the reloads or the gun?

This was my first time shooting my recent purchased Scout Squad in a Sage chassis, Fulton Armory national match trigger modification, Fortis muzzle brake and Vortex PST FFP 4-16x50.
20170312_154032.jpg

41.5gr of H4895,
168 amax,
BR2 primer
Federal brass.
COAL 2.8"
crimped

Did not chrono today.



At 100 yards I had two groups of 3/4" and a group the started well with the first two holes touching and then the third went way left, and my very first group while zeroing I put the first two bullets in the same hole and a third low left by inches.
2017-03-13 08.29.51.jpg
2017-03-12 19.01.42.jpg
2017-03-12 19.01.07.jpg

Do you guys have any idea why these flyers are happening? I'm usually pretty meticulous with my reloads. But I notice my flyers are going way left. Maybe it's me jerking the trigger.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 05:40 AM   #2
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Even though you are in prone/supported firing position the basics of correct trigger pull, head position, breathing, still apply and perhaps it is lack of repeatability of those factors?? Yes, it could be due to the shooter and not loads or rifle. However, I noted that you are crimping the loads and unless the crimp is the same pressure, same location on the bullet shank that could also cause a flyer. I do not crimp loads unless in much more powerful loadings as in 375HH, 458Win.Mag bolt guns to prevent the bullet from creeping forward and causing failure to feed from the box magazine. Try 5 loads not crimped and 5 crimped and see if different results. Your rifle seems to like the loads other than the flyers. Just a suggestion.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 05:56 AM   #3
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Have you established a base line for the accuracy of the rifle?

That is, have you fired a few 5 shot groups of Federal Gold Medal Match to see what the rifle set up is capable of? (Preferably with iron sights)

Without that, it is hard to diagnose if flyers are caused by the rifle, the scope, the ammunition or even the shooter.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 05:57 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instructor View Post
Even though you are in prone/supported firing position the basics of correct trigger pull, head position, breathing, still apply and perhaps it is lack of repeatability of those factors?? Yes, it could be due to the shooter and not loads or rifle. However, I noted that you are crimping the loads and unless the crimp is the same pressure, same location on the bullet shank that could also cause a flyer. I do not crimp loads unless in much more powerful loadings as in 375HH, 458Win.Mag bolt guns to prevent the bullet from creeping forward and causing failure to feed from the box magazine. Try 5 loads not crimped and 5 crimped and see if different results. Your rifle seems to like the loads other than the flyers. Just a suggestion.
I've always read to crimp for semi autos because of the violent cycling of the rounds. Is this not correct? Then how much neck tension is necessary to prevent bullets from jamming into the neck when chambering?

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Old March 13th, 2017, 06:05 AM   #5
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+1 to what KurtC said about a baseline. In addition I think that you should be firing 5 or 7 shot groups to make the statistics accurate. 7 is optimal, most posters on a previous thread like 5 to save ammo.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 06:05 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayfry725 View Post
I've always read to crimp for semi autos because of the violent cycling of the rounds. Is this not correct? Then how much neck tension is necessary to prevent bullets from jamming into the neck when chambering?

Here's a great EBR training video from the Army.

Tony.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 06:07 AM   #7
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Typically, actual 'fliers' are due to the shooter.
Be sure to do good follow-thru for each shot, and really SEE where the sights are pointed when the rifle fires.

Remember that a large group of shots produces an 'area of impact' not a single point - some will hit on the outer edge of that area. Shooting just a few shots is only the beginning of learning the size and position of that area.

As said earlier, crimping is not usually needed - most resize dies produce plenty of neck tension to hold the bullet.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

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Old March 13th, 2017, 06:08 AM   #8
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I have not used a crimp on M-1A's or M-1 Garands for that matter without any issues at all. I have never had any failures to feed or bullet heads pushed back into the casings.

As Instructor says, it is not necessary unless you are shooting heavy caliber rifle or lever action guns. KurtC is spot on as well.

As far as crimp pressure, I just size, trim and chamfer normally, I use RCBS normal .308 dies.

HTH.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 06:14 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayfry725 View Post
I've always read to crimp for semi autos because of the violent cycling of the rounds. Is this not correct? Then how much neck tension is necessary to prevent bullets from jamming into the neck when chambering?
You shouldn't crimp any bullets that do not have a cannelure. That's not why the cannelure is there, but it allows you to crimp without changing the dynamics of the bullet.

If you are properly sizing your brass, neck tension is enough to hold match bullets.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 06:22 AM   #10
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Another +1 on using factory match ammo to baseline your rifle. I have found that my handloads print around 1.2 MOA while factory FGMM prints around 0.8 MOA.

There's a long list of flyer causes. Here are a few:
-Inconsistent handloads
-Inconsistent head position when using a scope
-Inconsistent handloads
-Inconsistent stock placement on the shoulder (how tight it is in your shoulder on each shot)
-Inconsistent handloads
-Improper/loose scope mounting (scope base, rings, ring alignment)
-Inconsistent handloads
-Faulty scope (M14's are brutal on scopes and cheap ones die fast)
-Inconsistent handloads
-Sloppy fit of the SAGE operating rod guide on the barrel. The ORG should be a press-fit and you should not be able to wiggle the operating rod guide by hand.
-Inconsistent handloads
-Barrel whip screw needs to be adjusted
-Inconsistent handloads
-Improper torque of SAGE hardware. The top rail screws should be torqued to 25 inch pounds. the operating rod guide screws should be torqued to 30 inch pounds.
-Inconsistent handloads
-Trigger group clamping pressure is too loose
-Inconsistent handloads
-Bad barrel/damaged crown
-Inconsistent handloads
-Improper trigger control
-Inconsistent handloads
-And this should be your last resort: Heel gap. If you see daylight between the heel of the receiver and the top of the chassis, there is a possibility that it could cause flyers or vertical stringing.
Oh, and if I didn't mention it before...
-Inconsistent handloads

For more information on SAGE chassis installation:

Tony.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 06:31 AM   #11
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^^^^^^^

Do I read this right?
We have a reloader that states off the shelf ammo shoots better than his re-loads?

I think that might be a first. :)

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Last edited by Capona; March 13th, 2017 at 08:14 AM.
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Old March 13th, 2017, 06:45 AM   #12
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I will also add that 3-shot groups are good for zeroing and not much else.

5-shot groups are used for accuracy testing.

10-shot strings are used for match grade testing.

You should also consider using the military method of Average Mean Radius, instead of just measuring the extreme spread. It gives a more realistic account of "flyers" that isn't as disheartening.

It's rather simple, once you've done it. There is a great explanation here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/512887_.html&page=1

In addition to Tony's comprehensive list, my "personal" addition would be "too much scope." I shoot better when I don't see how badly my hold on the rifle is vibrating. If your scope magnification is set on max, consider dialing it back a bit.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 07:24 AM   #13
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[QUOTE=tonyben;2636882]Another +1 on using factory match ammo to baseline your rifle. I have found that my handloads print around 1.2 MOA while factory FGMM prints around 0.8 MOA.

If I read this correct Tony, you need to take better care while handloading. You should easily make more accurate ammo than FGMM. What are you using for components that only print 1.2 moa.
Must be pulled military bullets.

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Art

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Old March 13th, 2017, 07:34 AM   #14
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[quote=nf1e;2637026]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyben View Post
Another +1 on using factory match ammo to baseline your rifle. I have found that my handloads print around 1.2 MOA while factory FGMM prints around 0.8 MOA.

If I read this correct Tony, you need to take better care while handloading. You should easily make more accurate ammo than FGMM. What are you using for components that only print 1.2 moa.
Must be pulled military bullets.

Semper Fi
Art
My guess is bullet runout. The Wolfe chamber has a tighter freebore. I've found that some of my handloads can be inserted by hand withe ease and some require more force to seat fully. I've identified the root cause to be bullet runout. The ogive of the bullets that require more force to seat come out with rub marks on one side. I use SMK's, Nosler CC's and Hornady match bullets. I use LC brass and BR-2 primers. Neck tension is not as consistent as I'd like it to be. Some bullets seat easier than others.

Tony.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 08:15 AM   #15
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Regarding shooter induced flyers I find myself from time to time getting an errant shot placement and it is not my ammunition but failure on my part not giving proper attention to that final moment as the trigger breaks ensuring that I have the right sight picture. For "irons" I refer to it as the "sweet spot" meaning that the post is where it should be to give good shot placement as the other shots were before it. Big advantage here for two stage triggers for you have that last chance to clean up your sight picture to where you know it works for you. Can tell you from experience shooting Long Range bolt rifles with trigger pulls breaking like glass and less than 2lbs pull needed you had better have it right and that's from prone/mat/sling @ anywhere from 600yds. to 1000yds. with micrometer peep sights. The term precision rifle shooting means a whole lot more than the equipment, it means you as a precision shooter. Use of optics does not permit any less discipline than "irons" and in fact requires more dedication to the precision shooter concept while shooting prone and sling, no artificial support for all your human factors are magnified by whatever power optics you are using. If you see a competitor in prone/sling matches using optics of something greater than say 16X then he is either a very "hard holder" good shot or his scores will be a whole lot less than the skilled "iron" shooter.
F Class shooters/matches is another entirely different world of match shooting and even being supported and excellent glass it requires the shooter be "on his game" to get the right results. Contrary to much advertisement, scopes do not make the rifle more accurate, that is the job of the rifleman and his discipline. Not up to me of course, but if were up to me a new shooter would have to master the use of "irons" prior to buying any optics for his rifle. I am on my way to my bunker to absorb the incoming.

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