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Question about random flyers?! Is it me, the reloads or the gun?

This is a discussion on Question about random flyers?! Is it me, the reloads or the gun? within the Accuracy forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; [quote=tonyben;2637058] Originally Posted by nf1e My guess is bullet runout. The Wolfe chamber has a tighter freebore. I've found that some of my handloads can ...


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Old March 15th, 2017, 07:22 PM   #31
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[quote=tonyben;2637058]
Quote:
Originally Posted by nf1e View Post
My guess is bullet runout. The Wolfe chamber has a tighter freebore. I've found that some of my handloads can be inserted by hand withe ease and some require more force to seat fully. I've identified the root cause to be bullet runout. The ogive of the bullets that require more force to seat come out with rub marks on one side. I use SMK's, Nosler CC's and Hornady match bullets. I use LC brass and BR-2 primers. Neck tension is not as consistent as I'd like it to be. Some bullets seat easier than others.

Tony.

That's not freebore what your describing is the tighter neck diameter.

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Old March 16th, 2017, 03:06 AM   #32
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Thanks Phil. It's all fun.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 05:35 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
Hmmmm, JayFry hasn't come back. Maybe we didn't give him an easy answer?
I'm just taking it all in. There's nothing I can do until I load some more rounds and take it to the range again.

I'll use 5 shot groups next time rather than 3.

My current neck tension is 0.0015". Without a bushing die i can't get it any tighter. I'm still concerned about that being enough neck tension without a crimp.

And why can't I be able to get a consistent crimp if my crimp die is set with a lock rings and a set screw and my outside neck dimension after loading the bullet are all the same?

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Old March 17th, 2017, 05:54 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayfry725 View Post
I'm just taking it all in. There's nothing I can do until I load some more rounds and take it to the range again.

I'll use 5 shot groups next time rather than 3.

My current neck tension is 0.0015". Without a bushing die i can't get it any tighter. I'm still concerned about that being enough neck tension without a crimp.

And why can't I be able to get a consistent crimp if my crimp die is set with a lock rings and a set screw and my outside neck dimension after loading the bullet are all the same?

Try this. Measure your rounds before you load them. Fire a round and let the action cycle. Remove the round that was chambered and measure the COL to see if there's any setback.

I was nervous when I first started loading with no crimp, but that was thousands of rounds ago and no problems. I did reduce the size of my expander ball in my die by about 0.001" to give me some more neck tension.

Tony.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 06:00 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by tonyben View Post
Try this. Measure your rounds before you load them. Fire a round and let the action cycle. Remove the round that was chambered and measure the COL to see if there's any setback.

I was nervous when I first started loading with no crimp, but that was thousands of rounds ago and no problems. I did reduce the size of my expander ball in my die by about 0.001" to give me some more neck tension.

Tony.
Awesome. That's some good advise. I just read about guys reducing the expander ball or even removing it from the depriming pin in the neck sizing die to give them more neck tension.

I've noticed as I neck size the case always comes out hard over the expander.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 06:09 AM   #36
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https://youtu.be/Qmd3g9-oPgQ

I'm going try this with my dies to hopefully increase my neck tension.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 06:37 AM   #37
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The standard 'rough test' for adequate neck tension is to use firm thumb pressure on the base of the cartridge with the bullet tip on a piece of soft wood, to verify the bullet doesn't move.

I use a Q-tip on the inside of the neck when resizing. I just wipe the q-tip on the side of the case I just resized and then on inside neck of the next. That dramatically reduces the roughness of pulling the expander ball.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 09:32 AM   #38
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Jay, in order to get a consistent crimp, your brass has to be exactly the same length, the same hardness, and the bullet must be exactly the same diameter-not just close. You also have to use the technique with the press handle. You can get close enough for government work but no cigar. It is easier to get the same neck tension with out a crimp. Just polish your expander ball with some 1000 grit wet or dry with oil like Tony said and be sure to lube the inside of the necks on each round like Ted said (I'm lazy and just wipe a little Imperial wax off my finger-Q-tip is too much work) and you'll be fine. Go burn some powder.

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Old March 17th, 2017, 04:46 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by boomerpusher View Post
Jay, in order to get a consistent crimp, your brass has to be exactly the same length, the same hardness, and the bullet must be exactly the same diameter-not just close. You also have to use the technique with the press handle. You can get close enough for government work but no cigar. It is easier to get the same neck tension with out a crimp. Just polish your expander ball with some 1000 grit wet or dry with oil like Tony said and be sure to lube the inside of the necks on each round like Ted said (I'm lazy and just wipe a little Imperial wax off my finger-Q-tip is too much work) and you'll be fine. Go burn some powder.
Thanks for explaining that in detail. I didn't realize this. I'm going to try and plush like you said and see if I can gain a thousandth or so in neck tension.

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Old March 22nd, 2017, 05:08 PM   #40
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And consistent neck diameter too is required for precise neck tension.
A tubing micrometer can verify diameter. Turning necks to a nominal diameter can be accomplished with a variety of tools. Different lots and brands of brass have different neck thicknesses.
I do not bother turning necks on medium range calibers like for the m14 (which has a short brass life too) but i do for my .300 WSM which BTW does not receive full length resizing, just neck sizing.
IMHO more value might be realized by bore lapping or chaning powder/recipes or technique if inconsistencies ocurr.

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Old March 23rd, 2017, 03:48 AM   #41
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Great hobby. Got some new toys for the bolts and thought I might do a little experimenting " again " for the M-14 types.
Done as much as I can with loads, bullets, annealing, and case prep.
Now I am working on a batch of DAG brass to see what I can do about getting neck tension down a little better.
Turning only takes a couple of seconds, so why not. As they say , proof is in the pudding. Taking DAG neck thickness from about .015 to about .013. Gosh this retirement thing is a blast.







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Old March 23rd, 2017, 07:53 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Netbeui View Post
Try shooting the M14 like a spring powered air rifle; very neutral, just rearward pressure from behind trigger guard.
For those unfamiliar, spring powered air rifles often fire to different points of impact depending how they are held, due to a lot of large moving parts (just like the m14).
Try Varget, and a grooved match piston from Sadlak.
If without a grooved piston, reducing load down from 41 grains may improve groups.

CS springs from David Tubb and a round recoil spring guide helps too.
I think if you get back to basics, the issue is consistency in holding the rifle rather than all of the moving parts. (I grew up shooting .22 and .177 piston air rifles. ) From personal experience, I found that the flyers were from me not doing my job rather than the rifle or ammo.

I am not suggesting that buying better components won't help tighten a group, but that it won't solve the issue of the flyer.

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Old March 24th, 2017, 07:56 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netbeui View Post
Try shooting the M14 like a spring powered air rifle; very neutral, just rearward pressure from behind trigger guard.
For those unfamiliar, spring powered air rifles often fire to different points of impact depending how they are held, due to a lot of large moving parts (just like the m14).
Try Varget, and a grooved match piston from Sadlak.
If without a grooved piston, reducing load down from 41 grains may improve groups.

CS springs from David Tubb and a round recoil spring guide helps too.
I would not advise an air rifle hold with an M1A. You can easily get a shoulder bump fire. It happened to me three times today out of 60 rounds. When I socked the rifle in tight they stopped. I get the same with my AK unless I pull it in tight.

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Old March 24th, 2017, 08:43 PM   #44
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I would not advise an air rifle hold with an M1A. You can easily get a shoulder bump fire.
I don't think he was advocating an Air rifle hold, I hope. It's fine when shooting High Power off-hand (one round loaded, slow fire). He was spot on about relating how improper hold visibly affects score-especially in smallbore and air rifle. Having dabbled in both with the World Police/Fire games it definitely shows I need to work on technique.

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