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Using iron sights

This is a discussion on Using iron sights within the Accuracy forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; There is a better feeling of accomplishment shooting successfully with iron sights than using a scope for some shooters.. I'm one of those. My shooting ...


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Old February 13th, 2017, 10:03 AM   #1
Lifer
 
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Using iron sights

There is a better feeling of accomplishment shooting successfully with iron sights than using a scope for some shooters.. I'm one of those.

My shooting Instructor was Sgt. Doyle Gracy USMC, he insisted that a Score Book be kept {Dope Book for every practice. These books were orange in color an had a provision to plot each round fired, Calling the shot" it was called.. Followed by plotting the called shot in the Dope book. In a short while the impact was on call a high percentage of the time, unbelievable in some of the better Shooters..

Sgt. Gracy claimed there are two things that make a good shooter ,of course the are others. One: learn to call your shots after the let off "Break", and make certain the slack in the trigger is taken up during the final sight alignment, not after alignment, or too early, just a second or two before.. He said, the take-up in more important than the Call. but the two must work together..

Do dry 10 min. dry fire drills in each position in concert with the above. In Off hand and slow prone, look at some distant object, best is something green, like a tree . Miss sgt. Gracy everyday... Art

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Old February 13th, 2017, 10:13 AM   #2
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Yep Art, I'm with you. Iron sight all the way, until I can see any more. Happy Shooting

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Old February 13th, 2017, 11:17 AM   #3
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Me too Art. Chances are very slim that I'll ever need it but should the occasion ever arise, I want confidence I can get hits without the bench or a 10 power scope.

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Old February 13th, 2017, 11:42 AM   #4
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The point made about taking up the slack in the trigger is one reason I really like the two stage triggers for it gives me an opportunity to double check the sight alignment with bulls eye. I shot long range with bolt gun for number of years and had to be very careful with a light, light trigger pull or shot would go off before I had really homed in on that sight picture. I always used micrometer peep sights, Warner or Zelenak, with Anshutz front globe and simple post insert and did well with that system. Many use an aperture front sight insert and supposedly easier to master, but using post was same as with Service Rifle and just felt comfortable with it. Last couple months or so been coaching an older gentleman on shooting his rifles and introduced him to calling his shots and doing so had him place same target face next to him on bench and tell him to place a pencil mark on that target where he thinks the shot actually went. Have had a hard time getting him off the bench and shooting off hand but will say he is getting very close to being able to call his shots reliably. He is a fanatical skeet shooter and rifles are foreign to him, but I have created a monster for almost everyday he wants to "go to the range."
Now the next step is to get him away from scopes for he buys those like they were disposable items(he is wealthy) and he can't understand how a peep sight works to give you any accuracy. It's a great ego builder for me when I show him how I can keep the shots in the 10 and X ring at 200yds with my LRB M14 in prone/sling position and he just can't believe many do the same out to and beyond the 600yd. line with such sights. Took him to Perry last year to see some of the best shooting at long range and he could not believe what he was seeing. Art, very good reminder for all of us wanting to improve our shooting, thanks.

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Old February 13th, 2017, 12:54 PM   #5
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Instructor...

Shooting my 22 cal. target rifle I heve experminted with the front globe sight inserts without much success. Actually shooting better with a post. I was wondering, given you experiences, if you would expand on the front aperture as to the size vs the target size..

For some reason I seem to get a fuzz area around the bull, or with the next bigger size apperture too much white, making it dfficult to center the bull.. I shoot at 50 yds, with an old Springfield M2, which has Lyman 48 sights.

Useing the extra wide post, from the small can of apertures, that I am sure you remember, it may be three times as thick as the thin one, this set gives me the most consistant sight picture, a very sharp and clear post on a semi clear bull that is 4 to 5" dia... bull depending on the light conditions that day... Art

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Old February 13th, 2017, 01:06 PM   #6
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Thanks for the tip Art .Calling your shot is a technique I only recently understood. I can see why it is important especially with iron sights .But like you said sight alignment trigger control all of it must be put together . On that note could you when you get time put together a post on the 2 stage trigger . Slow fire ,rapid fire maybe some tips and techniques that yourself or some of the better shooters you have known use .

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Old February 13th, 2017, 01:29 PM   #7
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This past fall I was at a regularly held precision rifle clinic and competition.
There are no ranges over 300m close to where I live so I travel with a buddy a few times a year to one of these clinics.

After the competition was completed on Sunday there was about 15 minutes available for free practice at 600M.

I went to the truck and grabbed my M1A National Match and got back on the mound with my spotter.
This rifle has never been shot past 100m with irons.
I dialed the elevation knob to the 6 and let the first round fly.
I was shooting at a figure 11/59 target (AKA Herman the German) which is 17"x44".
Scoring is V-Bull 100mm x 200mm, 5 200mm x 400mm, 4 remainder of the scoring surface
My spotter called a miss 12" to the right with good elevation.
I dial 2 MOA of windage and let another one fly.
The spotter calls a 4 with proper windage .
I dial the aperture for an additional 1/2 MOA up and let the next round fly.
The spotter calls a 5 so I hold slightly higher and the next round scores a V-Bull.
The final shot goes slightly high and scores a 5.

That 5 shot group meant more to me than winning the team competition that weekend.


Last edited by Thumprrr; February 13th, 2017 at 01:52 PM.
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Old February 13th, 2017, 01:46 PM   #8
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good on you Thump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumprrr View Post
This past fall I was at a regularly held precision rifle clinic and competition.
There are no ranges over 300m close to where I live so I travel with a buddy a few times a year to one of these clinics.

After the competition was completed on Sunday there was about 15 minutes available for free practice at 600M.

I went to the truck and grabbed my M1A National Match and got back on the mound with my spotter.
This rifle has never been shot past 100m with irons.
I dialed the elevation knob to the 6 and let the first round fly.
I was shooting at a figure 11/59 target (AKA Herman the German) which is 17"x44".
Scoring is V-Bull 100mm x 200mm, 5 200mm x 400mm, 4 remainder of the scoring surface
My spotter called a miss 12" to the right with good elevation.
I dial 2 MOA of windage and let another one fly.
The spotter calls a 4 with proper windage .
I dial the aperture for an additional 1/2 MOA up and let the next round fly.
The spotter calls a 5 so I hold slightly higher and the next round scorers a V-Bull.
The final shot goes slightly high and scores a 5.

That 5 shot group meant more to me than winning the team competition that weekend.

Join the club of Irons only... Art

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Old February 13th, 2017, 02:33 PM   #9
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Once I got my scope and mounts squared away I took it off. I have been shooting at half size shilotte targets, with irons. Mostly from 50-150 yards, standing, propped on a truck or tree and other real world shooting positions. I'm starting to like this better than trying to squeeze the tightest group out of everything I shoot. Hitting a 1 foot square target at 150 yards after stoping and hoping out of a truck or golf cart standing and shooting in only a few seconds is harder than I thought. But like others have mentioned this is a more real world possibility.

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Old February 13th, 2017, 02:39 PM   #10
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Thumbs up Thanks Art !

I have never had the opportunity to shoot my M14 at 600 yards. I did compete at 600 with a standard AR-15A2 at Camp Blanding in the late 1990s a few times prior to 9/11. After that it was shut down to matches for awhile.
That being said I always thought it was more "rifleman" like to shoot with irons. I got into M14s in 2002 and always competed with irons.

My favorite even though I placed 2nd was a combat style shoot at Hernando Sportsman Club in Florida back in 2002. Steel targets were 25, 50, 75, 100, 150 and 200 yards with firing positions in trenches with sand bags, foxholes, behind stacked train track beams and a junk car. I had more "hits" than the first place winner but he had a faster time by 20 seconds. I hit 12 more targets than he did.

My argument to the judges was " Since this was a combat scenario I would think enemy KIA numbers would take the prize as the other fella left more "enemy" combatants still alive ".

The judges didn't see it that way. I think it was due to the fact I was an out of towner and not a member of the club and I out shot the "champion" of their club.

I took my small medal and went home with a smile knowing I licked the other guy and he knew it and with irons to boot !

My dad taught me to shoot irons when I was a young boy the way he was taught in the service.

The way I looked at it since then was my dad and uncle hit some beaches in the Pacific war with M1s with iron sights. That was good enough for them it's good enough for me !

At 61 I still consider myself a force to be reckoned with at a match armed with an iron sighted M14.

Thanks dad and thank you Art !


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Old February 13th, 2017, 02:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by art luppino View Post
...
if you would expand on the front aperture as to the size vs the target size..
...
---------
The 'standard suggestion' is to use an aperture that appears about 2X the size of the aiming black.

Smaller than that and mental frustration can happen if the bull creeps into the aperture ring. The frustration increases the physical and mental process of 'settling down and getting a good sight picture'. When aiming, frustration MUST BE eliminated because it interferes with the primary goal.

The 2X ratio is good enough to SEE when the bull is centered.

Of course, everyone SEEs things slightly differently ....
so you need to find what works for you.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

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Old February 13th, 2017, 02:45 PM   #12
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That's what I'm attempting to learn Joker, I have always hunted and took the shot with the best rest available. My learning curve is with the peeps on my m1a, wondering if NM sights shouldn't have been my starting point. That being said I'm doing pretty good IMO. Could be faster with a larger rear ap. this target was shot at 100-150 yards in different positions. None from a seated bench. None with bipod or bags.
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Old February 14th, 2017, 04:13 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasted ammo View Post
That's what I'm attempting to learn Joker, I have always hunted and took the shot with the best rest available. My learning curve is with the peeps on my m1a, wondering if NM sights shouldn't have been my starting point. That being said I'm doing pretty good IMO. Could be faster with a larger rear ap. this target was shot at 100-150 yards in different positions. None from a seated bench. None with bipod or bags.
Wasted ammo,
I'm no expert but it looks as though you are on the right track.

Those shots are good. I wouldn't want you shooting at me !!!

Rmember practice, Practice, PRACTICE !!!!!!!!

Review your technique and breathing. Offhand has always been my weakness.

Soon, most if not all will be in the 10 !


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Old February 14th, 2017, 05:15 AM   #14
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I forget to breathe when taking a rapid fire string, it messes me up.

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Old February 14th, 2017, 03:29 PM   #15
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I train new shooters to shoot with iron sights from the bench, so they concentrate on the simple basics of sight alignment sight picture and breaking the shot till they can clean the SR target at 200, then move to the reduced targets from 3 and 6. This is in my experience the best way to burn that picture in your memory bank what it takes to put a round in the middle and call it.

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