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Burn rates.

This is a discussion on Burn rates. within the Accuracy forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; I plan on reloading some ammunition using 3031 instead of my usual 4895 or 4064. I searched for burn rates and discovered how differently some ...


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Old February 11th, 2017, 05:06 AM   #1
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Burn rates.

I plan on reloading some ammunition using 3031 instead of my usual 4895 or 4064. I searched for burn rates and discovered how differently some companies rate their powders.

One company rated WW748 slower than IMR3031 but faster than 4064 and 4895.

Another one rated WW748 as slower that Varget, 4064 and 4895.

Now I see why people get confused.

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Old February 11th, 2017, 05:20 AM   #2
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I don't worry about the precise 'order' of powders in a burn rate list unless the powder I'm interested in is noticeably 'out' of the group of its supposedly similar powders.

Unless some actual burnrate numbers are included (I don't recall seeing any), then there's no way to determine small / large differences.

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Old February 11th, 2017, 07:02 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKosta View Post
I don't worry about the precise 'order' of powders in a burn rate list unless the powder I'm interested in is noticeably 'out' of the group of its supposedly similar powders.
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Agree the above.

While I have loaded Improved Military Rifle 4895 by the keg (kegs) (remember when it came in the 20 pound metal kegs). Don't know how much but I have loaded a bunch of it since about 1975.
I have also loaded quite a bit of IMR 3031. I am a little hesitant to give loads, but in LC cases, start at 38.5 to 39 grains and go to 39.5 grains with 168 Match Kings. Every barrel on every M1A I have had liked 39.5 grains IMR-3031, LC NM cases, 168 Sierra match kings loaded to 2.80 OAL, Fed 210M primers.
Your mileage may vary.

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Old February 11th, 2017, 07:46 AM   #4
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My rifles love em some 39.7 grains of 3031 @ 2.81. Love it! 168 hornady, LC case. 9 1/2 primer. Using a Remington primer I can get a bit more powder in the case. Pressure seems to be a bit lower with the 9 1/2's.

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Old February 11th, 2017, 11:55 AM   #5
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I'm wanting to try this in my 18 and 18.5 guns, thanks for the info gentlemen. Now off to the powder barn.

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Old February 11th, 2017, 12:26 PM   #6
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Just a word of caution..

This wiil start a ruckus, but stay away from any brand of 4064 in the M1A if you are not running a vented plug.. The pressure bloom is far too late,...

There is nobody on this Forum that I know of that had access to the damage done to the Match M14's I witnesed. These M14's did not run vented plugs. Vented plugs were tested because heavy bullets at long range became of interest. Even in this situation the vented plugs were discontinued..

IMR 3031 may not be the best choice of powders for longer ranges, even at 600 it lacked the punch, but nothing was found better through the 300 yd. line than 39.5 grs. of IMR 3031 in LC and Fed. cases,,, driving a Sierra 168 bthp bullet... This load exceeded the normal 2.800" oal. depending on lande advancement in the barrels.. Art

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Old February 11th, 2017, 12:31 PM   #7
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I use 42-43 grain of IMR 4064 with 175g SMK / Nosler CC 175g with no trouble at all.

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Old February 11th, 2017, 01:35 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Killashrub View Post
I use 42-43 grain of IMR 4064 with 175g SMK / Nosler CC 175g with no trouble at all.
Quickload shows 43gr IMR-4064 is a compressed charge and has max pressure ~57K with port pressure @ ~12K with a 22" barrel. All are within safe range, but both max and port pressure are pushing it a bit. Tolerance variances could easily push this load over the top.

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Old February 11th, 2017, 02:09 PM   #9
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The thing about burn rates is that they can or may change slightly depending on the application. I too have used lots of 4064 over the years and seems its loaded by Fed is it not in the FGGM load?

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Old February 11th, 2017, 03:13 PM   #10
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IMR 4064 is an awesome powder. I have been running 41.5 grains behind a 168 grain bullet for years. No trouble at all.
LC case. Rem 9 1/2's and Winchester primers.
Yes, the pressure spike is very very sudden and can happen within .2 grains. You will get close to 2600 but reaching it is nerve racking. I like to stay in the 2550 range with the high end reaching 2600ft/sec.
Just be careful when reaching that 41.5 mark. Primers make a difference too. Rem 9 1/2 primers produce lower pressures and Win LR primers produce higher pressures....with the same load.
Pay attn to what cases you use(commercial/military) and please have a chrono handy. It helps.

Thanks from 2336USMC and JEFFJP_N_JJ

Last edited by Thedutchman; February 13th, 2017 at 08:59 AM.
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Old February 11th, 2017, 04:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by art luppino View Post
This wiil start a ruckus, but stay away from any brand of 4064 in the M1A if you are not running a vented plug.. The pressure bloom is far too late,...

There is nobody on this Forum that I know of that had access to the damage done to the Match M14's I witnesed. These M14's did not run vented plugs. Vented plugs were tested because heavy bullets at long range became of interest. Even in this situation the vented plugs were discontinued..

IMR 3031 may not be the best choice of powders for longer ranges, even at 600 it lacked the punch, but nothing was found better through the 300 yd. line than 39.5 grs. of IMR 3031 in LC and Fed. cases,,, driving a Sierra 168 bthp bullet... This load exceeded the normal 2.800" oal. depending on lande advancement in the barrels.. Art
See what you started? Lol

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Old February 11th, 2017, 06:28 PM   #12
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PS 400 , I do..

Quote:
Originally Posted by PublicSafety400 View Post
See what you started? Lol
This is not the first time this subject has come up about using 4064 in a M1A.

The post I wrote states: "damage resulted in the Match M14's that were used with 4064 powder." It is possible to use the words issues or no issues and not mean damage.. Saying issues may mean things improved...

For those that use 4064 and state they have had no issues, and by issues they mean damage, I would appreciate hearing from them as to where they checked for damage and what method they used to check..

On the other hand, if they mean the rifle continues to function, clearly there cannot be any issues, so they will continue to use 4064. Be my guest... Art

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Old February 11th, 2017, 06:43 PM   #13
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So please enlighten us to the damage you witnessed using 4064. FGMM uses 4064 powder, and has been proven to be accurate and safe in M14 rifles.

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Old February 11th, 2017, 06:50 PM   #14
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So, use Fed ammnition.

How do you know what what exact powder is used in fed. ammo, and the same for safe and accurate in M14's?

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Old February 11th, 2017, 07:00 PM   #15
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I'm sure whatever response I give will be met with "canister grade powder" blah blah blah. But since you asked. I''ve pulled down several cartridges of FGMM in both 168, and 175, compared the powder with IMR4064, seen spec sheets, duplicated the load using the same case, primer, bullet and 4064 powder. Same velocity, performance, etc. Walks like a duck...you know the rest.

Now, how about answering my question... Tell us this "damage", or better yet, show us.

It's also pretty common knowledge that the military switched from RL15 to IMR4064 due to pressure issues in the heat, and performance issues in extreme cold.

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