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m14 CASM mount moving? PLEASE HELP!

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Old January 27th, 2017, 11:36 AM   #16
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Knowing M14.ca and their quality products, luck will have nothing to do with the success you should have.

But good luck anyway!!

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Old January 28th, 2017, 04:00 PM   #17
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Yeah bad news. The groupings are a lot better than last time and the shot is centered horizontal wise. But my shots are still stringing up and down but less, still it's about 2" off elevation wise. I installed it following the directions as best as I could and I got some solid picatinny scope rings. It helped a lot but still cannot sight it in. I wouldn't know what else to do except get a thread tapped in the reciever ring. Unless anyone has any suggestions.

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Old January 28th, 2017, 04:09 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Mihajlo Simsic View Post
Yeah bad news. The groupings are a lot better than last time and the shot is centered horizontal wise. But my shots are still stringing up and down but less, still it's about 2" off elevation wise. I installed it following the directions as best as I could and I got some solid picatinny scope rings. It helped a lot but still cannot sight it in. I wouldn't know what else to do except get a thread tapped in the reciever ring. Unless anyone has any suggestions.
I wouldn't get a thread tapped into you're reciever. That's not good.
I'd shoot with irons and see what your results are there before you make a move. Vertical stringing is often a breathing control and you would see it with irons as well.

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Old January 28th, 2017, 04:33 PM   #19
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OP, just to clarify, what is the overall spread of the groups you're firing with the mount now correctly installed, and how many shots are you putting into each group? I'm asking because 2" at 100 yards is a very reasonable group size for an M-14 pattern rifle that hasn't been bedded and tuned.

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Old January 29th, 2017, 01:22 AM   #20
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OP, just to clarify, what is the overall spread of the groups you're firing with the mount now correctly installed, and how many shots are you putting into each group? I'm asking because 2" at 100 yards is a very reasonable group size for an M-14 pattern rifle that hasn't been bedded and tuned.
albeit, it's centered horizontal wise but the elevation is off with 2" shot stringing up and down. Sometimes more but that's just me most likely (whenever I try to adjust for elevation). Also forgive me for being such a greenhorn lol but what is a quick summary on the tuning you can do on an M14? (don't need a full summary you guys have helped lots already lol).

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Old January 29th, 2017, 01:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mihajlo Simsic View Post
Yeah bad news. The groupings are a lot better than last time and the shot is centered horizontal wise. But my shots are still stringing up and down but less, still it's about 2" off elevation wise. I installed it following the directions as best as I could and I got some solid picatinny scope rings. It helped a lot but still cannot sight it in. I wouldn't know what else to do except get a thread tapped in the reciever ring. Unless anyone has any suggestions.
I wouldn't get a thread tapped into you're reciever. That's not good.
I'd shoot with irons and see what your results are there before you make a move. Vertical stringing is often a breathing control and you would see it with irons as well.
definitely something to take to note. Considering you can still use the irons with the CASM lol. Thanks.

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Old January 29th, 2017, 02:02 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Mihajlo Simsic View Post
albeit, it's centered horizontal wise but the elevation is off with 2" shot stringing up and down. Sometimes more but that's just me most likely (whenever I try to adjust for elevation). Also forgive me for being such a greenhorn lol but what is a quick summary on the tuning you can do on an M14? (don't need a full summary you guys have helped lots already lol).
Tuning can be a pretty involved topic but, broken down into it's simplest form, it's all about trying to make the rifle's moving mechanical components return to precisely the same state after every shot. That's achieved by tightening some assemblies (gas system, op-rod guide, action/stock fit) and by providing draw pressure (stock fore-end) or clearance (stock ferule, hand guard) in others. Beyond that it's about finding either a factory load or hand-load recipe that works best with the rifle.

Tonyben's Youtube videos are an excellent source of information on how to inspect and tune your rifle: https://www.youtube.com/user/tonyben3/videos

To eliminate human variables in the equation, I'd suggest having someone else shoot the rifle with the same ammo and see what their results are like before you dig too deeply into potential mechanical causes.

Cheers,
-Pop

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Old January 29th, 2017, 02:07 PM   #23
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How many shots are you shooting between adjustments? Are you allowing your weapon to cool? Are you shooting the same brand/load/lot through the weapon when testing it.
If you have not already addressed this in this thread, how was the weapon grouping prior to the optics being mounted?
Do not tap your receiver. JMHO.

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Old January 30th, 2017, 08:21 PM   #24
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How many shots are you shooting between adjustments? Are you allowing your weapon to cool? Are you shooting the same brand/load/lot through the weapon when testing it.
If you have not already addressed this in this thread, how was the weapon grouping prior to the optics being mounted?
Do not tap your receiver. JMHO.
When I first got the rifle I got 5 shots in a grouping smaller than an inch at 25 yards with irons, I shoot 3 shots before adjustments which gives the gun a couple minutes to cool down (in -5 celcius weather), and I shoot some cheaper federal fmj usually for targets but I got the same results with 180gr soft points and Hornady superpreformance (50-100 yards doesn't make too much of a difference). Sorry, should've addressed this earlier lol. But I notice the shells ejected are still hitting the mount, if the recoil isn't contributing to the mount moving then is it the ejection? I find I only get some stovepiping with the 180gr soft points.

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Old January 31st, 2017, 07:01 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mihajlo Simsic View Post
When I first got the rifle I got 5 shots in a grouping smaller than an inch at 25 yards with irons, I shoot 3 shots before adjustments which gives the gun a couple minutes to cool down (in -5 celcius weather), and I shoot some cheaper federal fmj usually for targets but I got the same results with 180gr soft points and Hornady superpreformance (50-100 yards doesn't make too much of a difference). Sorry, should've addressed this earlier lol. But I notice the shells ejected are still hitting the mount, if the recoil isn't contributing to the mount moving then is it the ejection? I find I only get some stovepiping with the 180gr soft points.
You shouldn't shoot anything over 175 to begin with.
And generally soft points aren't good either, unless you are hunting.
I think the SA manual indicates this.

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Old January 31st, 2017, 07:58 AM   #26
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A couple of questions and observations:
-Are you using a cheek rest? If you aren't using a cheek rest, then you're just guessing. I had to learn the proper technique for shooting with a scope. You need a consistent and solid cheek placement when using a scope. If your head is so high that your teeth or chin are resting on the top of the stock, then that's bad news. Get a Tac-Pro cheek riser, since you're in Canada.

-For an un-tuned, Norinco, 5" at 100 yards is still within the original GI acceptance spec of 7" at 100 yards. With some inspection and tuning, the rifle should be able to tighten up the groups to around 3". 3" to 5" is what I'd expect out of a GI config M14 without any accuracy enhancements.

-Scope durability. M14's are horribly brutal on scopes due to the secondary recoil impulse. Scopes that work well on bolt action rifles may not last very long on the M14.

-When you say you're still 2" high at 100 yards, does that mean you've run out of elevation adjustment on your scope? Depending on your shooting habits, this could be a good thing. That means that at 200 yards, you should be near zero. The CASM, by design is capable of being to adjustable in elevation. Some people pay extra for a +20 MOA rail.

If the mount is tilted down, like it is now, then that brings your point of impact up (a valuable variable if you're into long range shooting). If you tilt the scope up, then you bring your point of impact down.

You can back out both front and rear set screws and start over. Make sure there's daylight between the front of the scope mount and receiver ring. Place a sheet of paper or a 0.005" shim between the mount and the receiver ring. Screw in the rear set screw until it just touches the paper or shim. Remove the paper or shim and screw in the front set screw until it just touches the receiver and lock it down. You've now just brought your point of impact down a couple of inches.

According to my math, a 0.005" change at the front of the mount would bring your point of impact down about 3" at 100 yards. A sheet of paper is about 0.004" thick which would be about 2.5" at 100 yards.

In my experience, vertical stringing is attributed to inconsistent head position or a gap between the bottom of the heel of the receiver and the top of the stock.

Tony.

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Old January 31st, 2017, 08:03 AM   #27
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A lot of good advice on here. I would start by only using one type of ammo, shoot it with irons to see how it groups and to see if it still strings, wait at least 2 minutes between shots. If it doesn't string then it is either the mount or the scope. If you are changing your eye relief, on some scopes it can cause the shots to string vertically.

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Old January 31st, 2017, 08:17 AM   #28
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I also forgot to mention that brass will hit the scope mount on the way out, but it shouldn't cause a jam or stovepipe. If it does, trim a coil off your ejector spring. This will change the ejection pattern of your rifle.

I just looked at the picture of your rifle and it appears to be bone-dry. Check out my lubrication video. Your rifle will appreciate it.

Tony.

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Old January 31st, 2017, 09:43 AM   #29
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As stated, your eye and scope reticle alignment must be consistent each and every shot. Any variance will cause a change of point of impact as you are not aiming at the same POI even though it appears that you are. Your 'cheek weld' must be consistent and become ingrained to the point that any variance feels completely wrong and is instantly recognized.
I have been told by true experts that 180gr loads are not the best for this platform and that if used should be loaded not to exceed, if I remember correctly 2600fps. This may not be accurate as I do not load or shoot 180's through my weapon and I was told this a long time ago.
It is rare that two different loads, even utilizing bullets of the same weight will have the same POI. Any change in the load, be it powder utilized, powder charge, bullet brand, bullet design, bullet weight, case length, loaded cartridge overall length, case brand, case number of firings, or primers can/will effect the performance and POI.
I am no expert but do have a bit of experience in this art. There are real experts on this forum who can give far better and more accurate information and suggestions than I.
Hope this helps.

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Old January 31st, 2017, 10:15 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by NORKALNIMROD View Post
As stated, your eye and scope reticle alignment must be consistent each and every shot. Any variance will cause a change of point of impact as you are not aiming at the same POI even though it appears that you are. Your 'cheek weld' must be consistent and become ingrained to the point that any variance feels completely wrong and is instantly recognized.
I have been told by true experts that 180gr loads are not the best for this platform and that if used should be loaded not to exceed, if I remember correctly 2600fps. This may not be accurate as I do not load or shoot 180's through my weapon and I was told this a long time ago.
It is rare that two different loads, even utilizing bullets of the same weight will have the same POI. Any change in the load, be it powder utilized, powder charge, bullet brand, bullet design, bullet weight, case length, loaded cartridge overall length, case brand, case number of firings, or primers can/will effect the performance and POI.
I am no expert but do have a bit of experience in this art. There are real experts on this forum who can give far better and more accurate information and suggestions than I.
Hope this helps.

Along this same path, if your scope does not have a parallax adjustment, this can give you the same result as an inconsistent cheek weld/ eye position. Another reason to check your results with irons where this is not an issue.
An

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