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This is a discussion on on call? within the Accuracy forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Originally Posted by PublicSafety400 Ok here is a physicist that provides an explanation that will let all of us be right! Accordingly by to him ...


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Old January 1st, 2017, 04:43 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by PublicSafety400 View Post
Ok here is a physicist that provides an explanation that will let all of us be right!
Accordingly by to him there is primary and secondary recoil. Primary recoil is barely noticeable. Secondary recoil is what we feel after the bullet exits the barrel!
Cheers!
http://www.bsharp.org/physics/recoil

"When the primer lights the gunpowder in a cartridge, pressure from the rapidly-burning powder is exerted in every direction. The pressure exerted on the barrel walls goes nowhere (hopefully), the pressure on the base of the bullet forces it out of the barrel, and the pressure against the breech forces the gun to the rear.

Is this not part of it!? WE who shoulder and fire the weapon are an EXTERNAL FORCE!

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Old January 1st, 2017, 05:45 PM   #47
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I don't know how many here have seen this, but try shooting prone like in High power ( tight sling, glove, jacket ) and then shoot from a bench without all that. There is definitely a difference in your zero, been there, done that many times. I get a kick out of seeing once a year hunters zeroing a rifle from a bench and then can't understand why they missed the game. Sight adjustment is definitely built into position and recoil. When I started shooting competition, I was told that the zero's I had were mine not the rifles, it was how I held the rifle.

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Old January 1st, 2017, 05:56 PM   #48
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"PublicSafety400
Maybe you can perfectly control recoil through some mastered ability but I can't and never will."

One of the best things I ever learned from my shooting coach was "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're probably right.

Food for thought

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Old January 1st, 2017, 06:03 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DudleyDR View Post
PublicSafety400:

"If the weapon begins to recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel that would mean the point you were aiming at has now changed because the weapon has now moved off the POA. Please don't tell me that sight adjustment incorporated recoil into the equation. That would be the first time that was heard!"


DUH! Well, the point of aim has not changed, but the sight height design and the adjustment of the sights has taken recoil into consideration. Here is an easy example to see and understand. You obviously have no experience with a high-powered handgun like the Ruger single action .44 Magnum. Have you ever observed how tall the front sight is in relation to the rear sight? I think not. Have you ever looked at a picture of one? Even looking at a picture of one, if you use a straight edge (ruler) to align the top of the front sight with the top of the rear sight - a correct sight picture - you should notice that the centerline of the bore is pointing at a downward angle to a straight line of sight. That is because during the 7 1/2" that the bullet travels prior to its exiting the barrel, the muzzle end will rise to your original POA so that your bullet will hit what you aim at. Recoil raises the front sight arc so that the POI is not low. This is true of most firearms to varying degrees. There are many variables, but the principle is correct.

Maybe that is the first time that you have heard this or have taken it into consideration, but it is a "true fact"...not "fake news".
Who are you to assume what experience i do or do not have! I suggest you stop thinking that you are right about everything in your own mind and do a little research. You say that the sights take into consideration recoil? Would you please quote your source? Otherwise it's just your opinion. I have remained civil during this discussion and provided sources to back up my statements, which is more than you or most in this discussion have done. Your engine video is a wonderful display of a very unique engine design but it provides NO explanation of the physics involved so it is useless to the discussion. I see no point continuing in the discussion as it seems no amount of evidence will convince some.

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Old January 1st, 2017, 06:18 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by PublicSafety400 View Post
Who are you to assume what experience i do or do not have! I suggest you stop thinking that you are right about everything in your own mind and do a little research. You say that the sights take into consideration recoil? Would you please quote your source? Otherwise it's just your opinion. I have remained civil during this discussion and provided sources to back up my statements, which is more than you or most in this discussion have done. Your engine video is a wonderful display of a very unique engine design but it provides NO explanation of the physics involved so it is useless to the discussion. I see no point continuing in the discussion as it seems no amount of evidence will convince some.

PublicSafety,

I am no expert here at all but did shoot Hi-Power handgun Shillouete way back in my younger days and agree with Dudley on the handgun example.
Re-read your first Physics example and you will find your answer there... The cartridge as fired exerts a force to propel the bullet forward and a force, I believe, equal to the rear as 'thrust' or recoil... (and not to muddy the water but there is the 'rifiling influence?' 1/10, 1/11, 1/12 ect...
We as shooters, and the ones responsible for unleashing these forces, are required to contain and ensure they do not deviate from their natural paths... makes a great deal of sense to me..

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Old January 1st, 2017, 06:51 PM   #51
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PublicSafety400 stated:

"Who are you to assume what experience i do or do not have! I suggest you stop thinking that you are right about everything in your own mind and do a little research. You say that the sights take into consideration recoil? Would you please quote your source? Otherwise it's just your opinion. I have remained civil during this discussion and provided sources to back up my statements, which is more than you or most in this discussion have done. Your engine video is a wonderful display of a very unique engine design but it provides NO explanation of the physics involved so it is useless to the discussion. I see no point continuing in the discussion as it seems no amount of evidence will convince some."


Reply:

Sir, I draw insight and conclusions using deductive reasoning from the amount of expertise or naivete displayed in ones communications. For several years my very life depended on my ability to "read" and assess people.

Your second quote from an anonymous, non-credentialed "physicist" settles nothing, rather it just opens up a can of worms. You appear to be acting like a troll.

You seem to have a problem with scientific fact(s).

Here is a source which shows a graph of actual recoil recorded by instruments. You are promoting the false impression concerning both your assertions that 1) recoil happens after the bullet leaves the barrel and 2) of the spurious "secondary recoil gas jet" effect component. Please point these out to me on this graph. The round dots on the graph indicate when the bullets left the barrel.

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/recoil.htm

And if you dare:

http://saami.org/PubResources/GunRecoilFormulae.pdf


Hopefully some real world and life experience will teach you more about interior, exterior, and terminal ballistics - as well as recognizing that sights are designed and constructed to allow for muzzle rise due to recoil.

Here's hoping that you learn to shoot well and utilize calling your shots to increase your capabilities. Best wishes.


Last edited by DudleyDR; January 2nd, 2017 at 10:43 AM.
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Old January 2nd, 2017, 11:30 AM   #52
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I believe the confusion here can be traced to this statement made by the physicist quoted by PS400:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PublicSafety400 View Post
While the bullet is still in the barrel the forces exerted between them are (not precisely, but very close to) equal and opposite and the system of bullet/gun is self-contained. There are no forces exerted from outside that would make the overall gun/bullet system move. This is a classic case in physics where linear momentum is conserved, with the result that the mass of the bullet times its forward speed is equal to the mass of the gun times its speed backward.
While the statement is entirely correct (presuming the gun is free to recoil without restriction), it does NOT mean that there is no recoil while the bullet is in the gun. It simply means that the momentum of the gun is equal and opposite of the momentum of the bullet (and gasses), so the NET momentum of the system is zero.

Tim

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Old January 2nd, 2017, 12:52 PM   #53
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timrb: Thank you for your post. I admit that I am often not the best person to explain things that seem/are elemental to me. I just could not let go of the proposition and belief that recoil does not begin until after the projo leaves the barrel. That is false. As someone mentioned previously, there are recoil operated ("blowback") firearms in existence - both in full auto and semi-auto...some with locked breeches and some w/o. My Barrett uses a recoiling barrel. Those mechanical functions start while the bullet is still in the barrel and pressure is contained and well above 14.7 P.S.I.G.

I did wonder if Mr. PS400 had a pre-conceived notion in mind and was reading his references with an eye to support his view (or bias) instead of being totally objective and considering the complete scope of the words he read.


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Old January 3rd, 2017, 08:48 AM   #54
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ramble some more

Calling shots is easier said than done! Learning to call your shots is a huge leap toward improved shooting performance.

dougboffl said in #15:
Quote:
If in those situations you thought everything was on the X and when you view the target you have fliers then you know something is wrong.
Why do you thought that "everything was on the X?"
Maybe something is wrong, and inability to call your shots could mean that your have equipment or ammo problems. Loose scope mount? Damaged scope? Loose front sight? Check it out, fix it, and fire another string. Or it could be a simple case of wishful thinking.

Maybe we want to believe that we never make a bad shot and want to credit the rifle or ammo for our erratic performance. Evaluating your shot requires self-honesty. You dont have to post it to social media!

My goal is to learn how to call every shot, which requires patience and discipline to break the shot only when the stars are aligned, whether shooting slow off the bench or timed fire with pistol, although I can't remember all the calls during a sustained string.

I am gratified that this topic has generated some heated discussion, and I appreciate the concurrence on this topic of several respected members of the forum.

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Old January 3rd, 2017, 09:37 AM   #55
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My goal is to learn how to call every shot, which requires patience and discipline to break the shot only when the stars are aligned, whether shooting slow off the bench or timed fire with pistol, although I can't remember all the calls during a sustained string.
One of the best ways to learn to call your shots is, luckily, also the cheapest: dry firing. This is especially true when practicing prone--if you see any sight motion AT ALL when the shot breaks, you just shot a seven.

They are pricey, but an electronic trainer will take your dry firing to a whole new level, giving you honest, instantaneous feedback for each shot. Most importantly, you will learn what a good shot looks like, which is very important in the rapids.

Tim

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Old January 3rd, 2017, 05:49 PM   #56
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Calling shots is easier said than done! Learning to call your shots is a huge leap toward improved shooting performance.
shooter86314, that was your point before the thread creep took over, wasn't it? But it was entertaining while it lasted.

I completely agree with what you're saying. For me, putting it in the 7 ring when I've called a 9 at 3 o'clock is most of the time an indicator that my trigger control isn't as smooth as it needs to be. A very valuable tool to let me know what I need to correct.

Ditto to timrb on dry firing.

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Old January 7th, 2017, 01:30 PM   #57
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Just got back in and getting to read all the comments quoting physicists,etc.

Of note throughout several years of various HP shooting sports is the draw these disciplines have toward the engineering type mindset...it's a natural attraction with all the technical intricacies.

That said, I cannot count the times through the years a 'mathematician' has stepped up after a successful relay in which conditions have dropped scores up and down the line and questioned my decisions in windage/elevation/mirage/technique/load, etc. they've obviously been standing behind the line listening/observing the relay. Then to give instruction in why what I just did won't work...so why you placing 41st out of 49 shooters and I (was) in top 3??? \

One of the best HP spotter coaches of all time made the comment at Raton Nats one year..."this ain't no thinking mans' game" to which one my squadding partners, himself a national champion many times over, later commented "most shooters think themselves out of winning".

I read somewhere "if your ideas/techniques are different from everyone else's and you're a champion, you're an innovator! If the inverse is true, you're naive".

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Old January 7th, 2017, 04:44 PM   #58
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truth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter86314 View Post
Calling shots is easier said than done! Learning to call your shots is a huge leap toward improved shooting performance.

dougboffl said in #15:

Why do you thought that "everything was on the X?"
Maybe something is wrong, and inability to call your shots could mean that your have equipment or ammo problems. Loose scope mount? Damaged scope? Loose front sight? Check it out, fix it, and fire another string. Or it could be a simple case of wishful thinking.

Maybe we want to believe that we never make a bad shot and want to credit the rifle or ammo for our erratic performance. Evaluating your shot requires self-honesty. You dont have to post it to social media!

My goal is to learn how to call every shot, which requires patience and discipline to break the shot only when the stars are aligned, whether shooting slow off the bench or timed fire with pistol, although I can't remember all the calls during a sustained string.

I am gratified that this topic has generated some heated discussion, and I appreciate the concurrence on this topic of several respected members of the forum.
You are so right shooter86314: and so was dougboffl...

I went out to do some shooting today and paid much attention to this thread.
What I learned today was that MY rifle does not shoot Nosler bullets very well at all! End of session doing some 20 Dot testing with nosler 155 CC's and had maybe 10/12 rounds go off 'in the 'x'" but pulling the target I had 3 hits!?

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Old January 7th, 2017, 05:09 PM   #59
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Now that I've accurized, and found the right ammo, I am able to call a fair amount of shots.

When the rifle came out of box, erratic 6" groups were the norm, with some drastic flyers.

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Old January 7th, 2017, 08:19 PM   #60
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Some accuracy consistency with your rifle is the first step. The next step in calling shots is yours.

Good luck and have fun!

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