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This is a discussion on on call? within the Accuracy forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Dougboffl that makes much more sense to me. I can see where if you are supporting the rifle without a stabilizing aid then there would ...


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Old December 28th, 2016, 09:41 AM   #16
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Dougboffl that makes much more sense to me. I can see where if you are supporting the rifle without a stabilizing aid then there would be some continuous movement and you should be able to recognize where your sight was when the shot went off. Thanks!

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Old December 28th, 2016, 09:43 AM   #17
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The point that I am trying to make with this thread is that most loose groups and erratic shots are caused by the shooter, not by a half of grain of powder or the wrong bullet.

Even the best shooters in the world don't hold the firearm absolutely steady for every shot. Has anybody shot a perfect score with free pistol or air rifle? Calling the shot is a way to evaluate the position of the firearm when the shot breaks.

Iffen a shooter thinks that he holds the firearm perfectly still as the shot breaks, then that shooter probably isn't watching his sights closely.

Yes, the bullet leaves the barrel very quickly, but not before the recoil has begun to move the firearm. If your follow-thru varies from shot to shot, then your firearm will recoil differently each shot.

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Old December 28th, 2016, 10:29 AM   #18
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With iron sights and growing skill in shooting them regardless of position it is important to remember the sight picture in your brain to be able to duplicate it shot after shot. A coach will encourage you to "remember that sight picture" when you are both calling a good shot and the shot itself. We all hear about "muscle memory" but mental memory is equally important yet both work together for best results. When shooting Long Range with micrometer rear/globe post front sight, I would recognize the correct sight picture that produced 10's or X's and pulling the trigger was almost automatic. Brain, eyes recognized it and immediate muscle reaction to break the shot. There is such a thing as "target fixation" and that can at times mess you up for not paying attention to wind as much as you should and anytime your eye is not fixed on that sight picture, note any visible changes in conditions, wind, light, cloud cover, etc., etc. Common suggestion for clarity of the eyes is that if the sight picture does not look right to you, look at the grass, stare away from the sights, blink the eyes to moisten them, and then refocus, it does make a difference and helps prevent the target fixation. Just a suggestion

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Old December 28th, 2016, 12:08 PM   #19
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Calling your shots is an important part of the follow through process. It allows the shooter and coach to evaluate sight settings and other conditions that effect point of impact. One cannot call his shots without the proper amount of concentration or if the shooter rushes to get off the trigger in preparation for the next shot (this is common). It doesn't matter what type of sights are used or the distance involved. It's primarily done in precision bulls eye shooting, but applies to all types of shooting disciplines. Without calling the shot, how does one know if it's a bad shot or the wind moved it off center or both? When your coach says shoot an X on the left side at 1000 yards (do to a slight wind change), how do you know if you actually had the sights on that spot if you don't call the shot? Was that 9 on the right side due to the wind change or a bad shot?

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Old December 28th, 2016, 05:58 PM   #20
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The USMC teaches calling the shot and follow through from day one of marksmanship training. If you aren't calling your shots and following through properly, you will never improve.

Here's an older thread with some discussion on this... The thread was originally about the USMC data book, but calling and follow through came up.

Data Book questions - understanding how to use one

Also, this brings up some thoughts about "plinking." Plinking, by my definition, is shooting just for fun, popping off shots at random targets like cans or milk jugs etc, with no real discipline or attention to marksmanship. Now don't get me wrong, plinking is great fun, but if one is trying to learn good marksmanship, plinking can be counterproductive.

The brain and muscles are always learning. Every time you use the correct fundamentals and break a good shot, your brain and muscles have been trained just a bit more how to do it correctly. Every time you pop off a shot without using the correct fundamentals, you have just trained your brain to do it wrong. You're going backwards.

So for someone trying to improve their shooting skill, maybe just getting into competition, or maybe training for an upcoming match, I suggest a personal ban on plinking. Focus on every shot as if it's the only one that matters, because it is.

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Old December 28th, 2016, 08:24 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by shooter86314 View Post
The point that I am trying to make with this thread is that most loose groups and erratic shots are caused by the shooter, not by a half of grain of powder or the wrong bullet.

Even the best shooters in the world don't hold the firearm absolutely steady for every shot. Has anybody shot a perfect score with free pistol or air rifle? Calling the shot is a way to evaluate the position of the firearm when the shot breaks.

Iffen a shooter thinks that he holds the firearm perfectly still as the shot breaks, then that shooter probably isn't watching his sights closely.

Yes, the bullet leaves the barrel very quickly, but not before the recoil has begun to move the firearm. If your follow-thru varies from shot to shot, then your firearm will recoil differently each shot.
Ok, what follows is a direct quote from a physicist on ballistics and recoil. It's a little long but it illustrates why recoil does not begin until the bullet leaves the barrel.



"When the primer lights the gunpowder in a cartridge, pressure from the rapidly-burning powder is exerted in every direction. The pressure exerted on the barrel walls goes nowhere (hopefully), the pressure on the base of the bullet forces it out of the barrel, and the pressure against the breech forces the gun to the rear. The force of the pressure on the base of the bullet over the time it acts (the total area under the force/time curve, not just the peak value) determines the speed of the bullet as it leaves the gun.

While the bullet is still in the barrel, the force on the bullet is the instantaneous pressure on the bullet base multiplied by the area of the base of the bullet, less the friction of the bullet on the barrel walls. The force acting backwards on the gun is the instantaneous pressure of the powder at the breech (not necessarily the same as that on the bullet) multiplied by the area of the cartridge base, less the friction of the bullet on the barrel walls.

While the bullet is still in the barrel the forces exerted between them are (not precisely, but very close to) equal and opposite and the system of bullet/gun is self-contained. There are no forces exerted from outside that would make the overall gun/bullet system move. This is a classic case in physics where linear momentum is conserved, with the result that the mass of the bullet times its forward speed is equal to the mass of the gun times its speed backward.

Let’s see if we can quantify this. Consider a 7.5-lb .30-30 rifle shooting a 150-gr bullet from its 20” barrel at a muzzle speed of 2200 fps. If we ignore the recoil effects of the powder and look at just the bullet and gun, the average acceleration of the bullet is about 45,000 times that of gravity and the bullet exits the muzzle in about 0.015 seconds. As a result, the gun ends up moving backwards at 6.3 ft/s and with 4.6 ft-lb of energy — the work the shooter must exert to control the gun just due to the moving bullet. Heavier and/or faster bullets, and/or lighter guns, increase this amount of free recoil energy.

Note - if the bullet never leaves the gun but stops for whatever reason within the barrel, there can be no (or very little, accounting for losses due to friction and heat) net speed of the gun/bullet system. At most, the gun/bullet may move slightly to and fro as the bullet speeds up, slows and then stops, due to the motion of the center of mass of the gun/bullet system. Also note that it makes no difference exactly how the pressure is generated within the barrel, only that there is something inside that is pushing the gun and bullet apart. Even if the details of the powder combustion were important, it is complete far before (relative to the time the bullet spends in the barrel) the bullet leaves the barrel, and occurs faster than even the most sensitive nerves in a human body can detect or respond.

If we add in the recoil effects of the powder, it gets a little more complicated. There have been many ways to account for this ”jet effect” or the expansion of the still-hot combustion gasses after the bullet leaves the barrel. The one that most ballisticians now agree on is to assume that the entire mass of the powder is burned, and expands at its maximum rate (4700 ft/s,the speed of gas expansion under standard conditions) as the bullet leaves the barrel. This “jet” adds an additional term to the momentum acting on the gun but not the bullet, and admittedly its form is an assumption. To be even a little bit more precise, however, we would have to know the amount of powder that is actually burned and the actual pressure of the combustion gasses when the bullet exits the barrel; neither is available to any degree of accuracy. This effect is almost negligible in long-barreled.22 rimfire rifles and far more than predicted in short-barreled, high-pressure magnum rifles, but we’ll go with this approximation since we have no real wayto be more precise.

Adding this effect to the example above, assuming a powder charge of 30-gr under that 150-gr bullet out of our 7.5-lb .30-30 rifle, as the bullet leaves the barrel the gun moves backwards due to both bullet and expanding gas at a speed about 9 ft/s, with a free recoil energy of about 9.4 ft-lb, more than double that due to just the bullet alone. Adding more powder increases the recoil due to the jet effect, which is why producing the same muzzle speed with less of a fast-burning powder produces less recoil than achieving the same muzzle speed with a larger amount of a slow-burning powder. To keep recoil as low as possible, choose the powder with the lightest charge weight to produce the desired speed.

Free recoil energy is the amount of work that must be done to control the firearm. This ends the physics portion of the shot, and the “perception” or “perceived recoil” portion takes over as the shooter tries to control the gun. Recoil-reducing devices and/or soft recoil pads increase the amount of time (and decrease the amount of force) over which the work is done, resulting in a more comfortable experience. Recoil sleds, to which a rifle is firmly attached, drastically increase the effective weight of a rifle, greatly decreasing its recoil speed and energy."


Last edited by PublicSafety400; December 28th, 2016 at 08:55 PM.
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Old December 28th, 2016, 08:44 PM   #22
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Ok, what follows is a direct quote from a physicist on ballistics and recoil. It's a little long but it illustrates why recoil does not begin until the bullet leaves the barrel.

Ohhhh boy--better get some popcorn started.

Tim

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Old December 28th, 2016, 08:57 PM   #23
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Ohhhh boy--better get some popcorn started.

Tim
😂

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Old December 28th, 2016, 09:11 PM   #24
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Perfectly true, and totally irrelevant.

Target shooting is about 80% mental, 20% physical. Holding a rifle and pulling the trigger are easy, controlling your mind and emotions make the difference between a champion and an also-ran.

Calling the shot and follow through are mental training tools. If a shooter calls every shot as "perfect dead center" he's either a national champion, or he's not paying attention. I have watched videos of David Tubb (multiple national champion) shooting, and he calls his shots.

Follow through is important. Even though physics clearly says that the bullet is gone, follow through is critically important because it trains the mind and body to remain still *while the shot is breaking.* If you don't follow through, you will develop a bad habit of bucking (anticipating the recoil, shoving the rifle with your shoulder when you think the shot is breaking), jerking (yanking the trigger when you think you want the shot to break, thus disturbing the rifle BEFORE the bullet is gone), and many other bad habits. It's not physics, it's mental. Proper follow through is the best way to avoid developing these bad habits.

If you allow yourself to move immediately after the shot, you will start moving during the shot. That's bad.

During the follow through, you should be calling the shot. That means an absolutely honest assessment of whether the rifle moved as the shot broke, whether the sights were perfectly aligned, whether you had absolute focus on the front sight tip as the shot broke, etc. Calling the shot is a training tool, it is how you learn to assess each shot, analyze your mistakes during the shot process, and train yourself to not make those mistakes again.

With practice, you will know when you have fired a perfect shot. You will learn to just feel it, even during the recoil, you will just know it was a perfect shot. It's pretty intense when it happens. Then, you just practice making that perfect shot again, and again.

If you are calling every shot perfect you are fooling yourself, and you will not improve.

This applies to any sport. If a bowler tells himself that every ball he rolls was perfect, and he's standing there congratulating himself on a perfect roll as the ball dumps in the gutter, he's delusional and he'll never be a better bowler. It's the same thing.

Shooting from a bench with sandbags can mask a lot of errors, which is why it is not good training. Even from sandbags, if you are bucking and jerking, not following through, your groups will open up.

Here are two things to try, if you think every shot is perfect.

1. Shoot your best group from sandbags. Then, give your rifle and ammo to a distinguished match shooter, and watch him shoot a group half the size.

2. Ball and dummy drills. This requires a couple of inert dummy rounds, and a friend or two. Have your friend load your magazine, 4 live rounds and one dummy, in random order. If you think every shot is perfect, just wait until the dummy round comes up and in the absence of recoil, the lurch and jerk of the rifle is blatantly obvious when the hammer falls. Instruct your friend(s) to loudly laugh and jeer every time this happens, the embarrassment factor is valuable training. After enough of this, when the hammer falls on a dummy round and just goes "click" and the rifle doesn't even quiver a tiny fraction of an inch, your group sizes will reduce to half.

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Old December 28th, 2016, 09:43 PM   #25
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Not disputing that practice makes perfect. I'm just disputing the need to call your shot in order to reach perfection in all circumstances and methods of shooting. i am able to practice all of the proper shooting techniques and control and hopefully will improve as time goes by. My point was that when bench shooting with bipod or sandbag there is very little perceptible movement of the crosshairs on the target that can be detected before or while the shot goes off. I agree with the comment of someone earlier that there is much more opportunity to see where the aim point has moved to when you pull the trigger and so I see the value of calling the shot in those circumstances. And yes I absolutely believe in proper control while practicing. I once mentioned on this forum that I can spend an hour at the range and only expend 20 rounds. That is my way but not necessarily what others are about. I take my time and try to make every shot count. I am not about competition with others but I'm in competition with my self.

Enjoyed the discussion.

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Old December 29th, 2016, 10:40 AM   #26
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If you don't concentrate on calling the shot when shooting off the bench, how do you evaluate whether a flier is the fault of the shooter or the rifle or a change in conditions? It takes practice and control to call the shots. The best shooters all do it.

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Old December 29th, 2016, 12:44 PM   #27
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In the silhouette games the guys down in the SW used to have a saying 'sleeping in the dot' in Spanish, dorme in punto or something like that...when the gaze/focus is so that the dot slows into desired target point and the rifle fires... if windage is 'on' calls will be within 1/2 min out to 500mtrs....offhand. Done it, and spotted for shooters that done it, it's a winning feeling...years pass and now the dot looks like a bat flying around a street light...trying to 'catch' the shot as it passes, usually misses. Occasionally, (used to be often) the focus is 'on' the shot breaks and goes where it's pointed...and the call is 'on' as well. \Staying in the shot long enough to accurately call where it broke is THE absolute foundation for any shooter in any discipline, without which you will never progress to any significant degree.

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Old December 29th, 2016, 12:52 PM   #28
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[QUOTE=2336USMC;2359065]The USMC teaches calling the shot and follow through from day one of marksmanship training. If you aren't calling your shots and following through properly, you will never improve.

Been calling my shots from early 1966 when the USMC instructed me on the proper use of the M-14. As 2336USMC has mentioned, there is so much more to consistent accurate shooting than just pulling the trigger. There is no better feeling than when you know you have just broken the shot you are working for. It is a real high for me in the rapids watching the sight picture drop right back in after recoil knowing where the last shot was going. Sitting was my favorite position for many years. It may only be memories now, but they are good ones for sure.

Semper Fi
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Old December 29th, 2016, 03:24 PM   #29
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Thanks to all for your information and explaining what calling the shot means.

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Old December 29th, 2016, 03:50 PM   #30
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Thank you PublicSafety400, I didn't know what I was doing had a name. I was a little confused as well.

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