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Accuracy or dependability?

This is a discussion on Accuracy or dependability? within the Accuracy forums, part of the M14 M1A Forum category; Originally Posted by jywolfe As far as bedding a hard use non-match rifle goes, we developed a procedure many years ago that is still be ...


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Old December 9th, 2016, 09:15 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jywolfe View Post
As far as bedding a hard use non-match rifle goes, we developed a procedure many years ago that is still be used today and is very effective.

Alignment Bedding

Accuracy modifications and dependability, functionality and reliability are not inverse variables and are not mutually exclusive. I believe the opposite is true.

Hope this helps.
Sir: Would this type of bedding be allowed under the CMP rules. If I'm understanding your thread it it's not a complete bedding job.

TKS,

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Old December 9th, 2016, 10:56 AM   #17
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The trend for most posters I read seems to be, match prepare and bench rest shoot their M1As for the tightest possible group. I get most of my grins from off hand, kneeling or prone at stuff on the berm. It great more realistic practice and doesn't get an edge from match pieces parts or really sophisticated reloading.

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Old December 9th, 2016, 11:26 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Douglas Haig View Post
The trend for most posters I read seems to be, match prepare and bench rest shoot their M1As for the tightest possible group.
I'm with you on this sentiment. My NM rifles, LRB M14 and AR15A2, are completely accurate and reliable-but they're not benchrest rifles. They're shot across the course. My F-T/R rifle "might" be benchrest capable, but it's shot rested on a rucksack while laying on the ground. Figure out what it really is for and how you will use them. It's like that TV ad, "it's what they do".

Gus Fisher used to talk about "Walter Mitty" rifles, and it seems so apropos at times.

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Last edited by smoothy8500; December 9th, 2016 at 11:37 AM.
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Old December 9th, 2016, 01:29 PM   #19
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A Scout version of the M1A is not normally thought of as a match grade rifle and for such a rifle would definitely want reliability to be the key feature of the rifle. It needs to go bang every time you pull the trigger, every time, no failures. Great deal of that responsibility rests with the operator as well as having the rifle using quality parts throughout. As for accuracy requirements if you can routinely hit a 5 gallon jug at 200yds+ from any position with a Scout version of the M1A you and the rifle has done it's job. To do this requires no NM components or modifications from my experience, but would also say that a nice clean breaking 4.5lb. trigger is nice to have. Only real way you are going to find out if the rifle is dependable is to shoot it and shoot it a lot. Only shooting 30-50 rounds while at the range few times a year is not sufficient to determine any weak links in the rifle or you the shooter. One would fully expect a new or near new rifle would not fail, heavy use will bring out the problems. Just a suggestion.

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Old December 9th, 2016, 03:10 PM   #20
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Back when I was active duty, the day finally came when the Marine Corps M14 DMR rifles were ready for issue to the EOD teams in our region. A Staff Sergeant 2112 Precision Weapons Repairer (aka match armorer), one of the guys who built those rifles at Quantico, flew out to Camp Pendleton with the rifles.

These were brand new DMR builds, the gun logs showed only function check and initial zero. Fully match tuned, glass bedded in McMillan fiberglass stocks.

The SSgt conducted a one day training class for the teams on the new rifles. We spent the morning in the classroom with the rifles, and shot in the afternoon. During the classroom training, the SSgt discussed the procedure to remove the action from the bedding for maintenance. There were about 25 EOD techs in the room, with about a dozen DMR rifles laying on the tables. The SSgt, after describing the procedure, said, "OK, everybody turn your rifles over and pop them out of the bedding."

That sort of blew my mind a bit, and I asked the SSgt about the effect on the bedding.

The SSgt paused for a few seconds, heaved a sigh, rolled his eyes toward the ceiling. After a brief pause, during which I got the distinct impression that he was running through a list in his head of all the cuss words he was NOT going to use, he just looked at me and said, "When you need to take it out of the bedding, take it out of the bedding. Now pop that rifle out of the bedding." And we did.

BTW, when we went to the range, we set up on the 300 meter line with a working party in the butts to pull our targets. We pulled the rifles out of the Pelican cases and set up on the bipods. M118LR (175gr SMK) was issued. I was the first shooter with my gun. I dialed up the Leupold to the 300 setting, lined it up and fired. Rifle had been zeroed by someone else, at Quantico 3000 miles away, flown across the country. The first shot, cold bore, was an X (standard NRA 10X targets.) Not just an X, the hole actually cut the printed X dead center. Butts were using the small rapid fire spotters. Second shot, I saw the spotter fly off the target face- I shot the small spotter. Came up dead center. Third shot, again the spotter flew off. Shot the spotter again. Dead center X. Fourth shot I pulled it, and called it, because I was laughing when the shot broke. 10 at 7:00. Fifth shot, I had to try to stop laughing, and it came up dead center X ring again.

Someday I need to own a rifle that good.

+1 on smoothy8500, I was going to suggest- use the search function for member Gus Fisher, keywords Walter Mitty. Several threads on this topic.

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Old December 9th, 2016, 04:16 PM   #21
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This is a "Keeper Post"...

Read this over several times, than make a copy for your files.. Here we have a man with hands on, along with years of experience, sharing excellent information, opposed to someone recently showing up and, excuse my frankness, offering advise based on little or no experience.

Thank you 2336 USMC... Art Luppino

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Old December 10th, 2016, 01:27 AM   #22
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A two minute Scout that's utterly reliable needs shot more than modified. If it were mine I'd buy ammo and mags and light up my friends long range targets. Great advice in this thread, by the way, if you decide to move forward.

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Old December 10th, 2016, 02:27 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by art luppino View Post
Read this over several times, than make a copy for your files.. Here we have a man with hands on, along with years of experience, sharing excellent information, opposed to someone recently showing up and, excuse my frankness, offering advise based on little or no experience.

Thank you 2336 USMC... Art Luppino
Agree 100%. 2336 USMC said it all.

Semper Fi
ArtB

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Old December 10th, 2016, 07:24 AM   #24
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Whew, forgive me for misspeaking! I get the point Art. I try not speak to subjects where I'm unfamiliar, but clearly when it comes to glass bedding a M1A, I'm out of my depth. As I stated before, I humbly stand corrected. I know the wealth of knowledge on this forum is vast and I still have much to learn. That's what keeps me here.

The silver lining, I did actually learn something...I guess the hard way. But, better to learn now than not at all. I know now, it is worth the time to bed a rifle for an accuracy gain that will last (provided the bedding is done properly). The myth that glass bedding doesn't hold up always steered me away from a project that is doable for me, but would require quite some time and effort. Time and effort I didn't think was necessary unless I was heading to a match. My employment yields little time to match shoot, so I shelved any bedding ideas.

I have played with chassis systems. What got me into them is they take an hour and a half to two hours to slap together (if you're mechanically inclined) and the produce fine shooting rifles. This was and still is very attractive to my time needs.

My next rifle will be an 18-19" variant for hunting. I plan to keep it as light as possible (irons only). Now that I feel I have a new (yet very old) option I'm kind of excited...even if I had to take my licks...

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Last edited by swagbrdr; December 10th, 2016 at 07:25 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old December 10th, 2016, 08:04 AM   #25
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I wouldn't take his comments as a shot at you. Plenty of people have opined in this thread. I don't think his comment was aimed at you.

If I could guess, I would think that the tone of some of the opinions was to leave the match rifle at the match, take the battle rifle to the battlefield. I think his comment was aimed at those who were leaning in that direction.

Everyone's got an opinion. That's what forums are for. Sharing experience and opinions.

Tony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swagbrdr View Post
Whew, forgive me for misspeaking! I get the point Art. I try not speak to subjects where I'm unfamiliar, but clearly when it comes to glass bedding a M1A, I'm out of my depth. As I stated before, I humbly stand corrected. I know the wealth of knowledge on this forum is vast and I still have much to learn. That's what keeps me here.

The silver lining, I did actually learn something...I guess the hard way. But, better to learn now than not at all. I know now, it is worth the time to bed a rifle for an accuracy gain that will last (provided the bedding is done properly). The myth that glass bedding doesn't hold up always steered me away from a project that is doable for me, but would require quite some time and effort. Time and effort I didn't think was necessary unless I was heading to a match. My employment yields little time to match shoot, so I shelved any bedding ideas.

I have played with chassis systems. What got me into them is they take an hour and a half to two hours to slap together (if you're mechanically inclined) and the produce fine shooting rifles. This was and still is very attractive to my time needs.

My next rifle will be an 18-19" variant for hunting. I plan to keep it as light as possible (irons only). Now that I feel I have a new (yet very old) option I'm kind of excited...even if I had to take my licks...

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Old December 10th, 2016, 08:34 AM   #26
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My comments,

Were not directed at any anyone, nor were they intented to be offensive, they were simply a warning about accepting advise on face value. Each of us have expectations regarding our rifles, they are not always the same expectations..

Currently there is Post from a member seeking advise regarding the crushed shoulders on fired rounds. He has received multiple replys from well intended members.. This Post is a perfect example of making my point.. Good intentions are not the same as good advise.. Well down the replys, I asked him what the head space of the chamber is, so far no reply. This man has a dangerous situation, which he may not understand. Reminds me of the very old "Guzzinta" skit, anyone remember that ? Art

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Old February 5th, 2017, 04:30 PM   #27
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Glad I happened across this thread - I was about to ask the exact same question as the OP. Just so happens Gus Norcross indirectly commented on this topic in the recent copy of Shotgun News:

"Although I refer to the match-tuned M14 as a competition rifle, we should remember that the Army issued M21 was nothing more than a National Match M14 with a scope. M21s have served our military well from Vietnam right up to recent conflicts."

The M21 has been in use a long time and I imagine that would not be the case if its NM modifications sacrificed dependability or reliability.

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Old February 5th, 2017, 05:37 PM   #28
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Nothing degrades dependability unless you do a bad trigger job. That can have adverse implications.

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Old February 6th, 2017, 10:06 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Haig View Post
The trend for most posters I read seems to be, match prepare and bench rest shoot their M1As for the tightest possible group.
Hell, yeah! That's me. That's the kind of shooting I like most. Preferably in the shade, but I can rough it if I have to.

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