M14 Forum

Jason0839 · January 7th, 2012, 02:34 PM

How important is it to get ALL the copper fouling out of a barrel for accuracy? For the first time in my ownership of my rifles (BAR, 2 Garands, 2 M14 Clones, and a M4gery). Ive been scrubbing their bores to rid them of fouling. The OOW BAR and M14s came clean with in a day. My two Garands one 1955 Barrel one Criterion IE cmp Special will not stop showing me baby blue on patches.

NO these weapons are not 1/4" MOA guns but one M14 holds 3/4 MOA groups and the others about 1 1/2" . SO how important is zero fouling for accuracy with USGI type guns???

jmoore · January 7th, 2012, 03:42 PM

When it quits grouping well, it's time to give it a thorough cleaning. If it shoots well again after cleaning, drive on. Usually you can get a feel for the number of rounds you can shoot before it's time for it's next serious cleaning.

I have one rifle (NOT an M14 type) that must cleaned to bare metal (checked by borescope) every ten rounds for maximum accuracy. Another will go several hundred before groups open up.

(And an an old M1 that can't be cleaned completely because of fine pitting throughout the bore I think will maintain 2-4 MOA forever without removing all the copper. It's a great but wretched looking 6-44 barrel that's been on three different receivers now. Still nasty, still shoots!)

bd111 · January 7th, 2012, 06:51 PM

If your barrel is shaving copper it's worth it to lap with JB or fine Clover Leaf or even toothpaste or Flitz. It'll improve your shot dispersion and make cleaning go quicker when you HAVE to clean (which I detest). Now, copper WASH that you can see on the lands is no big deal. You can go after it with brushes and solvents and compounds but all you'll get is a clean, polished barrel. The copper wash won't go away. I've noticed it in particular with two of my best-shooting bolt-action rifles that are true "first-shot" tools in the tactical sense. I finally decided to be happy with the targets and ignore it.

Jason0839 · January 7th, 2012, 08:02 PM

Thank you for the suggestions gents. What do you mean by "Shaving Copper"? Is that what is happening with the copper coming off on to the patches?

82nd ABN · January 7th, 2012, 08:21 PM

Copper gets cleaned out of my rifles each time I shoot them. Copper fouling builds up over time and if left over and over eventually you won't get it off. For the longest time I was using a stand alone copper cleaner made by hoppe's called copper terminator. It wasn't available once at the local store so I switched back to old number nine and never looked back. Ol number nine will remove the copper fouling if you shoot at or around 100 rounds. If you go more I revert back to copper terminator after cleaning the barrel. Lots of info on the net about copper fouling and what causes it.

losok · January 8th, 2012, 07:28 AM

Try Sweets 7.62, its what I use to get copper out fast, just make sure to follow the directions. If used right, it will get rid of copper plenty quick and with little effort. Just make sure to clean with normal solvent and oil after, and keep it off the wood and/or paint on the rifle's exterior.

Jason0839 · January 8th, 2012, 12:48 PM

Ive been using sweets 7.62 for a few days on the 1952 Barreled Garand. The fouling is just laughing at it. There isnt any baby blue with a wet patch of sweets, but after 15 minutes, baby blue on the patch that follows!

cdec · January 8th, 2012, 01:30 PM

Jason-- I have no clue what you said.

RAMMAC · January 8th, 2012, 02:26 PM

Letting a copper remover sit for a few minutes (as is recommended by most of the manufacturers) is a more effective way of removing the fouling. There is no need to work a million patches through using a million strokes of the rod.

This a link to an extensive description I posted about how I cleaned a friend's M1 Garand.

Fouled barrel=better accuracy?

Since then the only change I've made to my cleaning process is that I now will let the rifle sit overnight with the CU+2 in the bore. That overnight soak reduces the total number of patches that I use and the number of strokes I run through the bore with the cleaning rod.

Jason0839 · January 8th, 2012, 03:22 PM

Thanks again for all the advice, been letting sweets sit for 15 than patch. I just ordered the CU+2. Ive been letting Hoppes #9 sit over night.

vanagonjon · January 8th, 2012, 03:28 PM

I used to use Sweets but now use KG-12, it is water based and the US military uses it on the big guns. Seems to work real well, and no stink or worries about mixing ammonia based copper removers and bore cleaners. I got it from Midway. KG-12 has been rated as the best copper remover by those that test these things.

John

DogT · January 15th, 2012, 08:27 PM

I find JB compound works good after about 1000 rounds or so, you can usually tell when the group starts opening up and the JB shrinks it again. Doesn't take much, just a few passes and a good cleaning.

Dog

Scouter 762 · April 30th, 2012, 06:02 PM

I'll put KG-12 on my next order. Lately I've been using Gunzilla and Gunzilla Copper Remover. It works Great. Sweets is very good and very powerful but can ruin a barrel, especially chrome if not washed out thoroghly, especially if left overnight.

hevybarl · April 30th, 2012, 07:01 PM

KG-12 is great stuff. I personally do not remove all of the copper, just most of it.
When I started using Butch's Bore Shine, I didn't have to use KG-12 as much, depending on the barrel. The Benchrest shooters that I know use both.

D308FAM · April 30th, 2012, 08:08 PM

It's hard to tell how much "a lot" is to different people in terms of copper fouling.
I usually use either Sweets or less often JB Bore cleaner if the area in front of the chamber seems to be building up with fouling that a liquid cleaner like regular bore cleaner or Sweets is not likely to get all the way out.
And, if the bore is really an impressive copper fouler I think I would consider cleaning it up really well with the the usual methods and then shooting some of Tubbs abrasive lapping projectiles though it to very quickly lap the barrels lands/grooves and take off the high spots and at least some of the irregularities in the barrel so that there's less roughness in the barrel to collect copper with each shot. I can really tell the difference in the barrels smoothness after shooting Tubb's projectiles though it.
I've never really tested the claims that using the Tubb's projectiles to lap the bore would improve accuracy. But I can say no weapon I have ever subjected to the Tubb's bore lapping method ever shot worse groups after the treatment was done, and the bores cleaned up a lot faster than they did before the treatment was done.