M14 Forum

Butch O'Hare

I have seen a video produced by David Tubb that demonstrated, in an accurized AR-10 on paper at 1000 yds., a higher level of accuracy of the rifle when fired in the single load mode as opposed to semi-auto function (i.e., firing from the magazine). Has anyone witnessed a similar tendency in the M1A?

Ted Brown

Are you refering to simply loading one round at a time as required for competition shooting or firing the rifle with the gas syatem valve in the off position? In most circumstances, the M14 will shoot slightly more accurately with the gas valve off, but a properly tuned NM rifle is designed and modified to shoot consistantly with the gas system functioning.

It's interesting that David Tubb spent a good deal of time and effort developing a SR25 to win the Nationals one year and then dropped it in favor os a bolt action rifle with a special bedding system he developed. Mr. Tubb has been promoting David Tubb rifles for years with much success. More power to him. The Tubb 2000 is excellent.

Back to the subject, The M14 has been used to win National long range championships on several occassions - always with the gas system in full operation. However, consistant accuracy does require match modifications.

Xsail

Probably has as much to do with being able to set OAL longer than mags will allow and not marking up the bullet as it does when it feeds...O.L.

Ivan1GFP

Instead of setting the Cartridge OAL Longer, why not make the throat shorter? BTW, the zero changes pretty seriously when the gas system is off in the couple guns I have shot that HAD that capability. The original NM modification permanently left the spindle valve open.

- Ivan.

M21guy

I do better with it on. I know the recoil pulse pretty well, and with it it off, it feels foreign to me.

30Caliber

That's what you get with a match rifle.

jameydan

Ivan,

On some loads it matters, as you loose powder capacity with the larger, wind bucking, high BC bullets loaded deep into the case (as you would have to do with a short throat). My Long range loads are loaded out to 2.900" give or take.
Just a consideration...

JW

Butch O'Hare

Allow me to clarify: greater accuracy was found with the rifle loaded manually versus semiautomatically. Anyone?

gregaba

Hi
I think the difference is that in a single shot at a time it gives the shooter more time to set up his next shot. When shooting semi auto there is a tendency to take the next shot sooner and maybe forgetting to take the time you need for your next shot.
This might be only a milisecond or two but everything makes a difference.
Greg

airnuts

I too have wondered about this. I was concerned that as the cartridge was loaded from the magazine the bullet somehow becomes knocked off of its center line causing a slight initial wobble as it starts to leave the casing and makes first contact with the barrel's rifling. Just a thought.....
Neil

M21guy

I have one magazine I like more than the others. It's this magazine I shoot for precision with. I either load it singly through the open breach, or feed multiple rounds with it. Either way the rifle doesn't seem to mind.

Whatsinaname181

Mr. Ted- in reguards to maintaining the rifles high level of accuracy- what is usually the first thing in need of servicing after a high round count to keep the rifle tip top? Bedding? what are the minor sorts of things that keep to be kept up with? (aside from barrel life)

GreatPlainsRifleman

I think the question the OP is really digging for is whether or not the round is seated in a more consistent way in the chamber if loaded singly.

You would think that it would be chambered more consistently if loaded singly. But you'd have to do a lot of tests with 10 shot groups on multiple occasions to find out.

As Ted said, in the slow fire stages of a service rifle match, you have to load single rounds anyway. So in terms of matches, the whole question of "is it more accurate?" is moot.

But if you do the research off a bench with sandbags, shooting multiple ten shot groups both ways, let us know what you find. :)

JayKosta

For some shooters, more consistency can be gotten with semi-auto feeding the rounds.
This happens because of the position changes that can occur when doing manual 'single round loading'.

It sometimes happens that a shooter's 300 yard prone-rapidfire group is smaller than their 300 prone-slowfire group, because they don't get out of position in semi-auto mode, as happens when using a spotting scope and single-round-loading.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Ivan1GFP

I wasn't following this thread for a while, but obviously it is current again.

Jameydan,

If the ammunition you are describing shoots well in your M14 type gun and you want that increased accuracy for a given course of fire, then no one can really tell you that you should not be doing that.

.....Now let me take a step up onto this Soap Box.....

From a philosophy standpoint (mine of course), 2.900 inch OAL means this isn't even CLOSE to .308 Winchester / 7.62 NATO any more. It won't even fit into a M14 or even a Short Action Remington 700 magazine any more. I don't even consider that to be M14 suitable reloads.

The .308 Winchester round is fairly small capacity and short OAL and is limited because of that. The M14 requires a certain level of port pressure in order to function reliably and not bend stuff which limits the reloading options even further. Bullet weights are generally limited to 180 grains and below, again to avoid bending or breaking things. The standard barrel length on this platform is 22 inches which limits the velocities that can be achieved.

I believe that these limitations should be respected. There is quite a lot of room for experimenting with this platform and caliber despite the limitations.

Now back to the original question: I have shot the M14 types as "Benchrest" guns very often. I don't recall there being any noticeable difference in group sizes from single loaded ammunition or autoloaded ammunition. Some guns will throw the first round to a slightly different point of impact though.

Turning OFF the gas system will seriously impact the point of impact. I can't remember if it changed the group size to any great extent though I only tested this in ONE rifle with very few rounds.

I believe that single loaded rounds SHOULD be more accurate though because the bullet noses don't get damaged as they do when the M14 loads a round from the magazine. The damage is very noticeable and perhaps the impact might even be enough to misalign the bullet.

This is just an account of what I have seen. As usual, your mileage may vary.

- Ivan.