M14 Forum

Originally Posted by Ivan1GFP

Hi Jameydan, Bamban,

We've just managed to seriously hijack a thread for a philosophy discussion. I am the most guilty.

I think Jameydan pretty much understands where I am coming from. SAAMI specifications describe what a .308 Winchester round is supposed to be. These single shot loads are so far off the standard in dimensions that they don't qualify as .308 Winchester any more in my opinion.

They can't possibly operate the action of a semi-automatic rifle and so in my mind don't qualify as M14 ammunition either.

As for heavy bullets not bending anything, I believe the vented gas plug pretty much explains why that is not happening.

- Ivan.

Originally Posted by jameydan

Gus,
I just wanted to expand on a few comments you wrote. My tone is not intended to be contrary, just a different view and some additional info. I italicized your comments below.

"Though I'm not sure it was in the NRA rule books over the years, back in the 70's and even early 1980's and for NRA NM SERVICE Rifle Match rifles only, if the round didn't fit in the magazine - they did not consider it as "Service Rifle" legal."

I just looked in an old NRA rule book (1963), and under rule 3.17, it basically states any safe ammo is allowed, without regard to OAL, bullet weight, etc. I do not have any old DCM rule books, but as you note the leg matches used issued ammo, so it was what you got. Might be ball, might be M118 and both would need to be loaded to function in a mag for the rapid fire stages.


"I am not absolutely sure it is still done this way, but "Leg Matches" that were set up to earn points toward the Distinguished Marksmanship Badge almost always required you shoot the ammo that was issued at the Match site. Thus the ammo HAD to fit the magazine or clip and was in accordance with the initial "expected guidelines" competition with Service Rifles."

Its been awhile since ammo was issued at a leg match.

"I don't know when they started loading bullets longer than would fit in the M14 Magazine. I know the Marine Corps Rifle Team did not do it even in the 1980's and to succinctly paraphrase Ted Brown, there really was not much reason to do it as the bullets then didn't offer much advantage of doing it. There were some people who loaded longer rounds for slow fire use at the 800 and 1,000 yard lines in the 80's, though. Where the practice really became common was with the M16/AR 15 rifles, though."

I would not see a benefit in loading the 173 or 168SMK long either - they are jump tolerant. However, I recently came into a supply of AMU loaded ammo from 1979. It is a 168SMK load with the bullet loaded out to 2.900". I received this from an AMU and Olympic shooter, and his only comment was that it was loaded long by the AMU for the 600yd line and the M14. I have not yet broken one down to examine the powder and charge weight.


"There was another reason NOT to allow cartridges that would not fit into the magazines, though I'm not sure this reason was often thought about. If one puts a single round in a chamber without a magazine or clip in place and allows the op rod to slam home on the round - a sensitive primer or high primer could cause an unintentional firing of the round."

I load my long (2.9-2.950") ammo into the mag from above then let the bolt go home on it. The ammo is long but still fits as it is not within the "box" of the magazine - the bullet meplat is just above the front of the mag and pointing at the chamber.

Jamey Williams


Attachment 15380

Not a clear pic, but this is the long loaded ammo referenced above.

Originally Posted by Ted Brown

I guess it's time to jump back in.
When the subject is the M14 under competition rules, there is no limit as to what ammunition is used, only that it must be safe. Bullet weight selection is for the operator to decide. So is cartridge overall length. The gas system must be fully operational and the rifle fired in semi automatic mode. All ammunition used in Rapid fire stages and usually in 200 yard slow fire is going to be loaded at magazine length. When shooting 600 yards, most shooters use bullets of 168 to 175 grains and there is little if any advantage to loading the bullets beyond magazine length. Those using VLT bullets may load them longer to within .005" off the lands or closer depending on where the rifle gets it's best accuracy with these bullets. This applies to 1000 yard loads as well. The only time I have personally loaded .308 longer was when using A-Max 168 grain bullets. Note that I didn't find they were any more accurate than 175 or 180 grain Sierra's loaded to magazine length.

This is somewhat contrary to the ammo I load for my .223 Space Gun. I load 77 grain Sierra bullets for all short range stages at magazine length. I load my 80 grain Sierra's and A-Max Hornady's about .005" off the lands. It's common knowledge that the longer .223 80 grain bullets do not perform well loaded to magazine length. I'm not the best shooter in the world, but I have shoot several 198 600 yard scores. It works for me.

One thing to keep in mind is that some bullets can handle the jump to the lands well and some do not. 80 grain .223's are a good example. .308 probably would give the same results, but, for the M14 to function best, a shorter throat won't do.

I think when using the same loads for short, mid, and long range, single loading (one round at a time) will generally score higher since the shooter is actually taking more time to breath, aim, and squeeze each shot. It's also true that shooting from prone or the bench is going to improve scores. This is like comparing apples and oranges, because there are other factors besides just ammo and whether single or magazine fed shots make a difference. I need to add that all single loaded rounds must be loaded into the magazine and fed from it to prevent slam fires. Directly loading single rounds into the chamber is not safe.