M14 Forum

taylaboy · November 7th, 2011, 07:46 AM

I was just curious how realistic the groupings should be on an M1a at ranges from 300+? Do most guys get larger groups the further out they go no matter what? if so, would it be because its a gas powered weapon and not a closed bolt action platform?

I also had my first real experience with 168 NM Grade Ammo vs. 150 cheap this weekend. The NM was noticibly a tighter group. Like almost scary noticable. They were all Sub MOA at 100 yrds with NM ammo, but when I put the cheap stuff in at the same distance....it was all over the place, like 4-5 inch MOA. I was pretty shocked.

I was able to "hit the black" at the 200-300, but the groupings were highly inconstent. I had a few that were literally sub MOA, and others that were all over the target itself within a 7 inch area. This was also my first time using a scope, so next time I may go out with NM Ammo, and do purely iron sights for the day to see if there are any differences. Just wanted to know the experiences of some of you better marksman who have used the M14 platform longer

The Cat · November 7th, 2011, 07:58 AM

Keep in mind that 1 MOA at 100 yards = 1 inch. 1 MOA at 200 yards = 2 inches, 300 = 3 inches, etc. The farther you go out, the bigger the groups.

Quote:

I also had my first real experience with 168 NM Grade Ammo vs. 150 cheap this weekend. The NM was noticibly a tighter group. Like almost scary noticable. They were all Sub MOA at 100 yrds with NM ammo, but when I put the cheap stuff in at the same distance....it was all over the place, like 4-5 inch MOA.

^^^ That's normal.

Whatsinaname181 · November 7th, 2011, 07:59 AM

A lot of the time this is how it is going to work (for a good rifle and ammo)-

If youre shooting 1'' at 100M, also known at 1 "Minute of Angle", youre usually going to be shooting 2'' at 200M, which is still 1 "minute of angle". That usually means youll be shooting 3'' at 300M and so on.

Now, ballistics being what they are, this is not always true. Some guns shoot very well at 100, then shoot like crap at 200. Some rifles shoot 2'' at 100 and stay that way out to 4 or 500 meters! Ive seen that. strange, but it happens. Could be user induced though too.

My krieger barrel shoots about .75MOA at 100M, but it STAYS at .75 moa out until 6 or 700 meters. actually its even better than that if you do the math. Shooting close at 100 meters and compared to another barrel, you might not notice the difference, but its the kind of barrel that shines at longer ranges.

Your M1A sounds like its a shooter with match ammo. My M1A loaded with a shimmed gas cylender hovers right around 1-1.25 MOA at all ranges up to around 6 or 700 with 168 and 175gr AMAX/SMK handloads. Starts to open up a bit before 800. Thats shooting 5 and 10 shot groups and not getting the barrel too hot. Most M14's ive shot are around 2-3 MOA. Same goes for most M1As ive shot. The matches and super matches ive played with are sub-1MOA shooters if the gunner does his part.

bigbang · November 7th, 2011, 08:00 AM

I am one of the " most guys" class and yes, my groupings open up the longer the distance is due to external influences like wind, temperature, canting errors, aiming errors. All that applies at 100m too, but the longer the bullet is under way the more it is prone to deviations. My pattern is MOA wise not a tube, it is more like a trumpet muzzle.
Wolf

taylaboy · November 7th, 2011, 08:01 AM

yeah, I pretty much expected the groups to expand the further out you were. So its safe to assume nobody keeps a consistent 1 MOA on this platform past the 100yrd l ine

Whatsinaname181 · November 7th, 2011, 08:05 AM

taylaboy, its expected- yes. Thats pretty much how it works. Theres always going to be that variable "there is a probability that this rifle will be able to chuck this peice of lead in a radius of aproximatly 1'' at 100 meters due to tolerences in ammunition manufacturing, weight of the bullet, pressure of the powder and the relationship of these things to the lands and groves of the barrel as its building up pressure on its way out of the gun and flying downrange" there is always going to be that probability. the better the gun, the more that probability increases and that chance-radius decreases and gets smaller. thats how it see it.

the farther away you get, the larger the radius gets until the radius is larger than a bullseye, a man, or a truck, or a building, or the moon.

taylaboy · November 7th, 2011, 08:16 AM

that explains why those guys put those weapons in the padded vice platforms and leave them there all day. when you get off the gun and hop back on it it will stay where you last shot assuming you didnt change anything, and the elements will be the only big factor. My biggest lesson is that NM ammo is the way to go for consistency the way I shoot

Whatsinaname181 · November 7th, 2011, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylaboy

that explains why those guys put those weapons in the padded vice platforms and leave them there all day. when you get off the gun and hop back on it it will stay where you last shot assuming you didnt change anything, and the elements will be the only big factor. My biggest lesson is that NM ammo is the way to go for consistency the way I shoot

Exactly. Bench shooters are trying to put all those rounds in the same HOLE every time. they are pretty much eleminating one of the biggest factors in the man-rifle-ammo-target relationship and thats usually the SHOOTER.

Gus Fisher · November 7th, 2011, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylaboy

I was just curious how realistic the groupings should be on an M1a at ranges from 300+? Do most guys get larger groups the further out they go no matter what? if so, would it be because its a gas powered weapon and not a closed bolt action platform?

I also had my first real experience with 168 NM Grade Ammo vs. 150 cheap this weekend. The NM was noticibly a tighter group. Like almost scary noticable. They were all Sub MOA at 100 yrds with NM ammo, but when I put the cheap stuff in at the same distance....it was all over the place, like 4-5 inch MOA. I was pretty shocked.

You have experienced what NM Armorers and gunsmiths have been trying to get across to people for decades.

One can have THE most accurate rifle that can be built, and if you put cheap ammo in it, it will shoot a shotgun pattern rather than a rifle group.

bigbang · November 7th, 2011, 09:52 AM

Its the GIGO principle.
Garbage in = garbage out.
Wolf

30Caliber · November 7th, 2011, 05:11 PM

I'm not sure what mine does at 600yds, but if it holds the 10ring elevation wise, I'm happy. Between wind and light changes, I stay busy enough operating the sights to not worry about it.

mustang7 · November 10th, 2011, 05:55 PM

I finally figured that out this past summer. Had fired over 500 rounds of surplus DAG'93 through my M1A and a couple thousand rounds through my M1and was getting pretty discouraged. Then I started loading my own. I couldn't believe the difference. I'm not an X ring shooter but I couldn't believe what a difference ammunition made.

Bamban · November 10th, 2011, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustang7

I finally figured that out this past summer. Had fired over 500 rounds of surplus DAG'93 through my M1A and a couple thousand rounds through my M1and was getting pretty discouraged. Then I started loading my own. I couldn't believe the difference. I'm not an X ring shooter but I couldn't believe what a difference ammunition made.

Just replace the slugs out of those DAG ammo with 155 match bullets like Sierra, Noslers, or Bergers, you will be just as equally happy. The accuracy limitation of MilSurp ammo is not with the brass, nor powder charge, nor primers, but with the crappy slugs.

Last Sunday at our local 200 yard reduced course I showed up with my ammo still in the garage, my offhand and rapid training ammo I keep in the truck saved the day. These are the Malaysian 82 surplus which I pulled the 147s and replaced them with Nosler 155. I won the match with 34 Xs. The best part which defines the accuracy of these push pull ammo was the slow fire prone X count on that reduced 600 to 200 with a 1.8 inch X ring - 12 Xs.

bigbang · November 10th, 2011, 11:59 PM

Beeing limited to FMJ only on our range I have loaded different brands (IMI, MEN, S&B, Privi) of FMJ bullets. The only way to achieve acceptable accuracy is when you sort them in lots of equal weight AND equal shape. Its depressing how big the differences in shape and therefor in seating depth are. And even then, you get what you pay for. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
Wolf

jake2far · November 11th, 2011, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylaboy

yeah, I pretty much expected the groups to expand the further out you were. So its safe to assume nobody keeps a consistent 1 MOA on this platform past the 100yrd l ine

A very informative book on this subject is:
The bullet's flight from powder to target
http://www.amazon.com/bullets-flight.../dp/B0007FJSAQ
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Bullets-...item5d2a6b5033

It can be a little "dry" to read but it will answer most of your questions.

It is safe to assume, the M14 platform is subject to the same variables as any other platform.

If you find the time please read the book it is one of the best studies ever done on ballistics.

Jim